I think you would find that if you really dug into it it is indeed a large sample. I assume you didn't spend your early adult years at a nightclub nearly every night for months on end and you didn't spend much time with groups of strippers who knew your best friend, and the men who frequent them often, on everyday social occassions? Not many have. I'm ashamed of that past, that I lacked the self esteem to see what I was being influenced by at the time, but I also learned from it.
Strip Clubs
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So where do you think womens' body esteem issues come from, then? And if it's not a problem why the need for things like the Dove campaign? Why are women starving themselves for looks and attention - or money? Why are they spending huge money on plastic surgery - younger and younger?
BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
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I don't know, cause it's not my kid, who pays no more attention to fashion, make up or her weight than her mother does. She's not hard to look at, but views male testosterone as a puzzling intellectual exercise, so ogling/comments about her appearance do the water off a ducks back thing.
She's also, however, a tough, pragmatic kid who knows the value of a buck, and I suppose if she'd ever needed to make a living stripping, she would have. I would have not thought the less of her, by any means.
Men have a desire to look at naked women. Many of them satisfy this desire with internet porn. Enough of them are willing to pay to see it live to generate a market for it. It will be satisfied. Safer and healthier to keep it right out in the open where everyone can see it. I like the idea of having it across the street from the hairdressers so that the lady gossips more or less know who patronizes the joint, who doesn't, and shares the info.
Fortunately for your kid. How about other peoples' kids?
I do not think the less of my friend either. She did what she thought she wanted to do at the time without much foresight or insight into why she felt compelled to. I think she could've done other things and been very successful at them, and I am sure she has regrets now and then - as do I about how I wasted my time and what unrealistic expectations I bought into and what I could've been doing instead. Nevertheless, I learned. So it wasn't all wasted.
The expectation that I look or behave a certain way to please men certainly didn't come from my mother. If anything, my mothers (second wave) feminism, post-divorce, has more of an impression in me now as I get older. It came from men I knew and women I knew who were influenced by the same type of men.
Those without the personal experience of the down side or who think it doesn't exist or isn't the most prevalent side and it isn't harming women are being deluded, imo.
Haha! Now there's an idea - that won't likely happen anytime soon.
Carolla
wondering & wandering
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I was referring to your post Kimmio - "several" is a small sample size & cannot be extrapolated to society in general with any accuracy.
Jae didn't you make an appearance in The Full Monty?
No - but you may have seen me in all in the buff in a little movie called Gremlins.
ChemGal
One with keen eye
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For me, it didn't come from what men tend to view as sexy.
Ritafee
Is Being Human
If council has already decided ... it's a done deal ... what more is there to discuss ... the dancers that are deemed 'sex workerishable' according to the human resources guidelines and as free independent contractors of their own assets are legally governed and encouraged to sell to the highest bidder ... the patrons are legally governed to enter with the proper legal identification and exercise their personal freedom to spend their own hard-earned (tax) dollars and encouraged of their own free will to fantasize about, or objectify, or ignore, or tip the tax paying dancers as much or as little as they choose ... the owners of the establishment are legally endorsed to take home their own share of the profits ... after all of the legal licensing and fees have been paid for ... and with the agreement that if they do not do so they will pay additional fines without question or go to jail ... unless they can afford a high enough paid lawyer to help them evade paying the said fines or taxes ... now only the not-enough-taxes paid person on the street is s**t out of luck if they happen to be passing by this establishment and need to pee ... they will not be allowed to use the free toilet inside of the establishment because they probably do not have the legal paid for identification to prove that they are an economically viable entitled-to-pee-free citizen ... they will not be allowed to pee in front of the establishment without the terrorizing threat of being reported to, or selectively caught by, a law enforcement officer who may have to decide to legally get away with shooting the miserable pisser for offending the obedient taxpayers rights by being in their tax-paid-for public space ... yep ... the council will make the decision ... in their opinion (yours or mine don't really count for much at this point) this is in the best interest of the 'whole' community that obediently pays their individual-rights-to-freedom taxes or at least donate lots of tax-evaded dollars to the government for the people so that, we the councilors, earn our above-average-income-paid-for services toward the good governance of the people who are unable to govern themselves ... passed!
And possibly next on the governing councils agenda ... in keeping with their mandate to enforce some revenue from the lawless non-profit-volunteer-charitable-tax-deduction-united citizens who insist on giving food and clothing to the beggars that do not even have a pot to piss in ... arrest them? ... fine them? ... provoke them into non compliance around our governing of their free will?... this could provide the necessity for us to acquire one of those free army tanks for our community peace officers to scare the humanity right out of them? ... and before we adjourn the people will need to know ... are the councilors entitled to get free lap dances at this new establishment or do we pretend to pay out of pocket and write it off as a personal expense tax break later and have the tax-payers reimburse the government? ... oh and speaking of pots to piss in ... does anyone else get confused about their gender identity when they go into the non-gender-biased facilities that are popping up all over the public space ... how does one know what to wear into those places? ... becoming such a problem looking law-abiding on all the security cameras.
Talk to several women who have had several experiences and your sample size will get fairly large. But if don't put yourself where the experiences happen, or never really have, the stats can't be extrapolated into society in the first place with any degree of accuracy. Stats, you know, can be manipulated by those who have a vested interest in doing so, right? So, what stats are you refering to that are more accurate than my own opinion feim my own experience? Or are you relying on the stats to back up your own opinion from your own experience without ever putting yourself in the shoes of someone who has reason to see the down side?
I'm just saying that I had the fortune or misfortune, depending on how you look at it - to experience and draw the connections to how abd why womens' body esteem issues take root.
@ChemGal you say yours didn't come from what men view as sexy and you didn't clarify. But what do you think happens as sexuality and sex appeal becomes more and more an all important issue and it is being dictated by those in the sex business? Do you not think it has any impact on young women? In my day, the 90s - we did not even have near as much exposure to the sex industry as young women do now. Continuing to endorse it without looking at the downside only makes it worse. Of course, Dove has profitted off of trying to remedy body image issues and if it keeps up it's lucrative for them too but in the end it doesn't truly help women if the powerful sex industry drives the marketplace that makes them turn to Dove to feel okay. It's all crazy. We've gone mad!
revsdd
Well-Known Member
I hesitate to jump in on this discussion, but ...
I've been perusing the internet as a result of this discussion. Suzanne Jenkins was a doctoral student at Keele University in England whose thesis revolved around sex work (escorting, not stripping, mind you.) She surveyed 483 sex workers, and found that 93% liked escorting for money, and 86% felt they were never or only rarely exploited. 25%, however, felt that THEY had sometimes exploited men, usually because they felt that at least some of the men who hired them couldn't really afford it. Slightly over 50% said that they enjoyed the sex, and over 70% said that their self esteem had improved as a result of sex work.
Jenkins' thesis was written in 2009, and it was entitled "Beyond Gender: An Examination Of Exploitation In Sex Work." I can't find the actual thesis, but I've seen it footnoted, with those statistics cited. I've also seen her conclusion quoted, which is that criminalization of sex work is unhelpful. It is an English study, but I see no reason that the situation in Canada would be markedly different. An academic study does seem more reputable than "several" experiences. PhD students are held to fairly rigourous standards in research and survey work.
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Uh huh. And by what standard are they measuring their enjoyment? What do they have to lose, consciously or subconsciously, by saying they didn't? And ultimately at whose expense do they enjoy it if they indeed really do?
My advice (to the participants in this discussion who are in favour of it) - go out, give up your jobs, and live it yourselves, hang out at the strip joints, get a job if you can, and see how you feel about it if you're so sure.
ChemGal
One with keen eye
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Will it impact some? Sure, but what I'm taking from you is an all or nothing opinion and feel like you're diminishing my person experience (which I'm not putting onto all women, or all men) in the process.
You can say that Cousin - but you know full well that not all of us can do that. Personally - I have zero interest in being a sex trade worker - but I'd happily give up cashiering pay for stripping. If you really want to talk about people who are exploited --- ah - but that's for another thrash.
I do know that and it was rhetorical anyway because nobody here will try to. But they could go and do a six month "field report" with an open mind fully willing to look at both sides, get to know the business and its players, and come back and report what they find. And if they do indeed find (which I doubt) more healthy than exploititive things to report on - why do the exploited still get ignored in favour of "the business"? I would love to hear back.
Ok - let me finish my MDiv first - then I'll go exploring. It should make for a fascinating qualitative study.
I didn't. I didn't intend to - sorry if you perceived it that way. You haven't told me what it was. Only that you had body issue experience that wasn't influenced by male sex expectations. Several people have diminished my experience, I feel, because they took a side against me in such discussions a long time ago and their minds are all made up about me.