An article "The church is killing its gay kids"
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Agreed chansen, but I feel blackbelt's question had to do with how Christians should govern themselves within the church.
chansen said:
We Christians love to claim that same sex behavior is sinful, which is a claim that can be biblically supported. However, I'm not convinced that that's the reason most of us make said claim. Rather, we seek to bolster our position as the children of the light by being all too happy to point out those we hold to be the children of the darkness. Then we say oh, but we love them. We don't mind saying as much, so long as we can avoid showing them much if any genuine friendship or compassion.
chansen said:
This much is certain.
I disagree , its more Like
mlkjhw le2
brother blackbelt, I'm astonished at you saying such things. Keep in mind, sir, you. are. a. moderator. now.
Seeler
Well-Known Member
You agree with inclusion ---
Just down the river from here is one of the oldest churches in Canada. It has two doors, side by side. One opens into the santuary. The other to the stairs leading to the balcony. There is no connecting interior door. It seems that when the slaves drove the masters' families to church, they would stable the horses out back and then go in through the door leading to the balcony. This door was locked during the worship service. Was this the best way to be inclusive? to make the slaves feel welcome? to show love?
Delightful Life
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Hello there LoveGodLoveMan,, welcome to WC2: the Second Coming (there was a first iteration...)
Hope you enjoy yourself here
Onto your post
Christianity cannot be bashed. God cannot be bashed. However, YOU can
Where do your thoughts & feelings arise, start from? Whose responsibility are they?
I think what Waterfall was pointing out with her quoting of those certain sections of Leviticus is to point out that those are the Word of your g_d & it was VERY bad to break them, the ones that NEVER should be broken -- they weren't minor sins -- and since that is so, then the decision to treat homosexuality as a sin is a choice to do so by the particular believer (because Leviticus also has things to say aboot homosexuality, which are as big an uber bad sin as the ones Waterfall quoted)...then since it is the believer's particular choice to call the act a sin...what then? Who has sole responsibility for thinking of it as a sin? Foist it off on some words outside themselves which cannot control their thoughts & actions (unless they are incompetent in some fashion?)
Just proffering a pov that you may never have considered...again, this is WC2 -- expect to be challenged here and asked to give support for your idears because we'd like to experience your particular pov -- what I've called Belief System or BS
Again, welcome to WC2 & keep in mind that you're among a group of people who have already been exposed to each other's ideas for quite a few years now, so we're used to each other & with you you'll be naturally going through a process of seeing where you fit in (and us seeing where you fit in) -- its part of our domesticated primate (read 'human') socialness. Like this person has noticed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuckman's_stages_of_group_development
Hope you enjoy yourself here
Onto your post
Christianity cannot be bashed. God cannot be bashed. However, YOU can
Where do your thoughts & feelings arise, start from? Whose responsibility are they?
I think what Waterfall was pointing out with her quoting of those certain sections of Leviticus is to point out that those are the Word of your g_d & it was VERY bad to break them, the ones that NEVER should be broken -- they weren't minor sins -- and since that is so, then the decision to treat homosexuality as a sin is a choice to do so by the particular believer (because Leviticus also has things to say aboot homosexuality, which are as big an uber bad sin as the ones Waterfall quoted)...then since it is the believer's particular choice to call the act a sin...what then? Who has sole responsibility for thinking of it as a sin? Foist it off on some words outside themselves which cannot control their thoughts & actions (unless they are incompetent in some fashion?)
Just proffering a pov that you may never have considered...again, this is WC2 -- expect to be challenged here and asked to give support for your idears because we'd like to experience your particular pov -- what I've called Belief System or BS
Again, welcome to WC2 & keep in mind that you're among a group of people who have already been exposed to each other's ideas for quite a few years now, so we're used to each other & with you you'll be naturally going through a process of seeing where you fit in (and us seeing where you fit in) -- its part of our domesticated primate (read 'human') socialness. Like this person has noticed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuckman's_stages_of_group_development
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chansen
Had a point all along
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Put the shoe on the other foot for a moment. Could you live and work within a community that frowned upon your heterosexual relationship and refused to marry you or respect your relationship?
Seriously. How would you feel? Could you exist in such a community? How difficult would that be for you? Take the beliefs out of it, or flip them on their head as well.
blackbelt1961
Well-Known Member
, I take full responsibilityWhat was the norm at the time? Perhaps that church was ahead of its time. Maybe other churches didn't allow slaves into their buildings at all. How easy it is for us to look back and judge.
Delightful Life
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What exactly did they mean by homosexual intercourse? Since it looks like the term 'homosexual' was invented in the 19th century, what exactly did they mean?
Does that include cuddling? BJ & handjobs? Or just anal sex? Does it include up to and beyond orgasm? How aboot prostitutes (getting paid for sex)?
These are serious questions here -- I don't know Greek, so I'm handicapped here :3
blackbelt1961
Well-Known Member
one of thousands of examples through out church history, this is why its so important to have the Holy Spirit as promised , His Presence confirms that we are not orphans , that we do Have a Heavenly Father regardless of what we believe scripture says.
Delightful Life
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What do people think is the whole purpose for Homosexuality being a sin?
What does it accomplish?
What does it accomplish?
airclean33
Well-Known Member
RitaTG---this is your post--
I sincerely hope that there are no LGBTQ youth sitting under that sort of teaching.
It would seem that the young person's suicide is preferable to soiling the position of the church.
Keep in mind ..... such a "loving" stance has escorted many down the path of suicide .....
How is that seen as holy conviction rather than religious condemnation????
.[/QUOTE]--First I would hate to see any young person hurt them self ,for any reason.
Here now is were this becomes a very big problem for a Christian. It seems you an other gays would rather send your children to Hell , by Christian belief than than change an follow GOD.
I sincerely hope that there are no LGBTQ youth sitting under that sort of teaching.
It would seem that the young person's suicide is preferable to soiling the position of the church.
Keep in mind ..... such a "loving" stance has escorted many down the path of suicide .....
How is that seen as holy conviction rather than religious condemnation????
.[/QUOTE]--First I would hate to see any young person hurt them self ,for any reason.
Here now is were this becomes a very big problem for a Christian. It seems you an other gays would rather send your children to Hell , by Christian belief than than change an follow GOD.
blackbelt1961
Well-Known Member
exactly , 2 opposing beliefs , with the one same spirit, both grps love Jesus
can you remove your atheistic belief ? hmmmm no,
its not that simple is it
Delightful Life
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He could actually teach himself how to
Trying on a BS won't harm you
Trying on doesn't automatically equate with 'not believing what I used to believe forever & forever' & when one learns how & is able to try on a different BS, then certain things become apparent, certain other things disappear
his question was a good one & it does present a problem* -- could one who is heterosexual live within a community that frowned upon the relationship?
*the problems of people of differing beliefs living in the same community
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blackbelt1961
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--First I would hate to see any young person hurt them self ,for any reason.
Here now is were this becomes a very big problem for a Christian. It seems you an other gays would rather send your children to Hell , by Christian belief than than change an follow GOD.
[/QUOTE]
its not a problem for Christians as much as it is for you , Christians nor anyone can send anybody to hell , we do not posses that power nore was this response to Rita respectful
RitaTG
Well-Known Member
--First I would hate to see any young person hurt them self ,for any reason.
Here now is were this becomes a very big problem for a Christian. It seems you an other gays would rather send your children to Hell , by Christian belief than than change an follow GOD.[/QUOTE]
There you go .... "send our children to hell" ..... for just loving them for who they are????
I wonder if those that are driven to suicide by that sort of attitude are grateful to have escaped your hell.
What of them??? ... the ones that cannot stand the condemnation and succumb to suicide?
Where are they?????? ...... I am very curious here....
blackbelt1961
Well-Known Member
I agree its an excellent question, im not discounting that , im pointing out that both sides need to surrender the issue
Exactly...the "laws" served some social purpose at the time (many of them Christians have determined irrelevant today, like wearing mixed fibres - for some reason that was sinful...maybe because families depended on income from textiles from one type of cloth, and so mixing it up was changing loyalty/ hurting someone's business...who knows why? But someone decided there was a reason for that and most people now don't see a reason), but then Jesus came and fulfilled the law (whether you believe it was metaphorically or figuratively or literally) and said, love one another...and part of that is looking at what purpose certain religious beliefs serve, toward the end goal of a cohesive, caring, society. In my opinion. Jesus did that when he challenged why people can't heal on the Sabbath, or eat certain foods...those rules were irrelevant to love...he did say, paraphrasing, that if people want to be religious about what they eat, don't stop them, but it's not mandatory to follow that rule ...because stopping them from that would create conflict, they are not hurting anyone, so why bother? He used reason. And I don't see any reason why denying same sex marriage or ordination or inclusion in anything church related or in society in general serves that goal of a loving cohesive community.
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chansen
Had a point all along
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You don't want to "surrender" the issue. You want the other side to stop kicking up such a fuss about your side literally harrassing and preventing the GBLTQ side from living their lives and gaining the rights and respect they seek. You want them to surrender, so you can keep doing what you do. That's not both sides surrendering.
And so I go back to my original question, which I have to admit, I also think is a good one.
"Could you live and work within a community that frowned upon your heterosexual relationship and refused to marry you or respect your relationship?"
I'll answer first. I could not exist in a community that looked down on my wife and I and called us "breeders" or thought less of us or went out of their way to tell us we were going to be tortured. I'd get the hell out of that community. And really, that's why I recommend GBLTQ people to walk away from Christianity and Christian communities. More than anyone else, I think they have the most to gain from such a move.
But you can't answer. You say it's because you can't remove your belief from the situation. So don't. Say you're still a Christian who believes as the majority of Christians do, that same sex attraction should at the very least not be acted upon. Could you live in a community of people who believed you were intrinsically disordered somehow? Due for some sort of eternal punishment? Somehow less of a person? Not allowed to marry? Frowned upon you living with your significant other?
No need to divorce yourself from your beliefs. Just place yourself in a world where everyone else is some sort of reverse-Christian and let us know if you would be so willing to surrender. Then maybe you'll be able to see why the other side isn't just surrendering to you here.
--First I would hate to see any young person hurt them self ,for any reason.
Here now is were this becomes a very big problem for a Christian. It seems you an other gays would rather send your children to Hell , by Christian belief than than change an follow GOD.[/QUOTE]
Get real airclean. No one who loves their kids and believes in Hell wants their kids to go there. (Is RitaTG gay?)