A very tragic teen suicide ..... she was trans....

[revjohn]

I am grieving.

My condolences to you in this loss. I deeply regret that this tragedy hits so close to home and is a catalyst for so much fear and pain.

Sorry ...... this is a vent and I apologize for that

As far as vents go this was pretty light. I respect that it represents a huge burden in your life and in your relationships. It doesn't represent much of an imposition on us here.

A proverb states, "Joy shared is joy doubled and sorrow shared is sorrow halved." Carrying this burden alone would make it an oppressive weight. Spreading it out here among friends makes it less crushing. You do not need to apologize for sharing.

Her parents still don't get it and simply refer to an accident that took their son....

Her parents may never get it.

They are also grieving the death of a child. No matter what we might think of their ability to comprehend certain elements of their child's life we become monsters ourselves if we think that they didn't love her. If on the best of days they did not understand certainly now in the darkest of days we can empathize with their loss.

Oh my how I grieve......

All with hearts that beat should feel even a modicum of loss. This is a tragedy and it will touch many people in many ways. There will be anger and sadness both for her and because of her. There will be much lashing out because of the pain and wounds will multiply again and again and again and again.

That is part of the anatomy of any tragedy.

A human life has been lost. Let us not lose our humanity because of our grief and our loss.

 

[RitaTG]

...............................
A human life has been lost. Let us not lose our humanity because of our grief and our loss.

Thank you Rev John ..... oh my.... how I agree.....
Let us not lose our humanity............
Leelah's parents .... they may never get it .... and yes ..... they are not monsters ..... I am sure that they loved their child.
The church involved .... again .... not monsters either .... the problem is not a superficial deliberate one.
Dialogue ...... that is what we need .... dialogue..... there has been enough pain and hurt.
Let us put away the paint brushes and the paint tinted with hate.
Let us dare to talk ... face to face ... human and vulnerable....
I am composing a letter I am sending out to the local churches in my area to ask respectfully for such a dialogue.
That is my response ...... I have been going everywhere doing presentations but not to the churches....
It is time ... please pray for me that I do this with the right heart and with the right words.....

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

You're still not making sense. How did that example relate to Leelah's story?

I had to give you a like because your likes were 666. I'll try another example.

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

Let’s say I say to my parents, I am Barack Obama. My parents say no you are not, look at the facts – you are not a tall good looking, articulate black man – that is him on TV.

I go to church and say, good morning, It’s me, president Obama. The elders pull me aside and say, sorry, you are no longer our greeter.


There are some people who say, wait a minute, why can’t he be Barack if he wants. They line up some doctors who want to experiment on somebody, so I undergo a painful skin transplant, have my thighs broken and extended and they do their best to make me look like Barack.


When it’s all complete, I get caught and arrested for trying to enter the washroom next to the oval office.


Whose fault?

Me?

My parents?

My church?

The enablers?

The doctors?

Barack Obama?

His security people?

Maybe someone or something I omitted?

Hospitals are full of people who think they are someone or something other than they appear to be. I know somebody who thought they caused the Philippine tsunami, and everything else that was happening in the world at that time. Is it possible they were right? What percentage of a chance that they are right?


That person no longer thinks that, by the way. But it is also possible that some do. If you listen to these people long enough, you might begin to believe them.


Anyway, my point was about blaming people.

 

[Jon71]

The Bible tells us that sometimes we entertain angels unaware. I wonder how often we entertain people in pain unaware. I had been thinking that if I had known her or someone in a similar situation I could have said a kind word or two, I could have said "God loves you even when church goers only give you grief". I maybe could have given a hug if I thought it would be welcome. Then I think, who knows if I have come across someone in a place of pain and despair and I didn't notice, if I was too caught up in my daily grind or whatever. What if I've missed opportunities to lift someone up. How do we make ourselves aware of when people are desperately needing some kindness and support right away? Assuming we aren't told outright, "I'm this close to ending it" what red flag do we look for? How do we give someone enough hope to go on?

 

[RitaTG]

Pontifex ...... what a cruel and ignorant post!!!!!!
It would seem that you have not done any research on gender identity.
Either that is simply an oversight or you have deliberately avoided doing so.
Exactly the sort of mean spirited, stupid, obnoxious, hurtful, untruthful, deliberately excessive statements made by so called "christians".
Your misinformed attitude is what contributed to Leelah's death...
STOP........ please STOP ...... enough....
Either take the time to educate yourself or please leave this thread alone....
I have no patience for this sort of thing right now ...... I am hurting far too much.
Here is the thing .... gender identity is NOT a choice ..... (way too much research to deny that)
Your religion IS a choice.
I am not going to stand by while you use your CHOICE to pass ignorant judgement on WHO WE ARE.
Very upset here ... very very upset.....

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

Not my intent

 

[RitaTG]

Then please Pontifex ...... lets reset...
Maybe ask some respectful questions to learn?

 

[paradox3]

Then please Pontifex ...... lets reset...
Maybe ask some respectful questions to learn?

You are a very patient person, RitaTG. Kudos!

 

[revjohn]

Your misinformed attitude is what contributed to Leelah's death...

That is an unfair comment.

It may be true in a general sense, as in misinformed attitudes contributed to Leelah's death. To lay the blame for Leelah's death at Pontifex Geronimo 13's feet is over the top.

Leelah made the choice to end her life.

Pontifex Geronimo 13 did not choose to end it.

Either take the time to educate yourself or please leave this thread alone ....

I'm not sure whether this constitutes fair comment or not.

Primarily because 100 people might disagree on what is required to become more educated on the matter. My read is that this thread is not open to define which education is a proper education.

That said, one of the principles of education is listening to others.

I have no patience for this sort of thing right now ...... I am hurting far too much.

Mindful of this reality maybe we could all move forward with some sensitivity.

 

[RitaTG]

I did overreact ...
Pontifex ... I apologize....
I replied in haste and my words were not well chosen.
It was not my intent to lay the blame directly at Pontifex's feet.
The comment was supposed to be very general and is not worded that way.
I will try harder to control my emotions and take time to better compose my posts....

 

[Seeler]

I agree with Rita - Pontifex is showing his ignorance in a very hateful manner. While his attitude may not have been directly responsible for Leelah's death, his attitude compounded with those who agree with it and who were in a position to influence her and her parents certainly contributed.
Suicide is the choice of the person who carries it out; otherwise it would be called murder. But other people, either individually or collectively, can have a great deal of influence of the person.

(posted at the same time as Rita - referring to earlier posts)

 

[RitaTG]

Choice .... do we call it choice when a person under extreme duress takes a course of action??
Is that a real and valid expression of choice?????
I attended a suicide memorial event and the mother of a young person that had died by suicide asked that we rethink that.
Rather than "committed suicide" ..... perhaps use the phrase "succumbed to suicide".
That change in inflection helps us to focus and dig to find out what contributed to driving the person to such a final conclusion.

 

[Carolla]

Trying to be thoughtful in my response Rita ... as someone who has dealt for many years with other people who are actively suicidal, or have survived attempts, but one who has not walked that road myself.

Yes, suicide is a choice of action IMO - sadly not usually one that is well thought through or considered to be an informed choice in terms of options which may be known and/or unknown to the person involved. Yes - these folk very often, in my experience, feel under extreme duress, which often limits rational thought. Some are psychotic. Some are impulsive. Most are in pain. How to keep people safe when they are in this state is an extremely difficult issue. As you rightly point out, understanding what underlies such decision is crucial to our learning and future safety of all.

Personally I would use the phrase "died by suicide."

 

[revjohn]

I agree with Rita - Pontifex is showing his ignorance in a very hateful manner.

One of the problems with ignorance is that it doesn't have to be hateful to be hurtful. I think we should all be a little more reluctant about attributing motive to an individual's character. Particularly individuals we may have never met outside of this text based forum.

Suicide is the choice of the person who carries it out; otherwise it would be called murder.

I agree with you. Feels kind of wrong to lay the blame for Leelah's death at her own feet though doesn't it? And yet everything about it was her choice.

 

[revjohn]

Choice .... do we call it choice when a person under extreme duress takes a course of action??

Yes, we do.

Is that a real and valid expression of choice?????

It is, as we see for Leelah, the realest of choices.

Is it valid? Is it good? Is it right? Is it informed? I'd be willing to say no to each of those.

It remains a choice and the consequences are dear.

I attended a suicide memorial event and the mother of a young person that had died by suicide asked that we rethink that.
Rather than "committed suicide" ..... perhaps use the phrase "succumbed to suicide".

There is a lot of discussion about the proper phraseology. And there are a number of plausible defences for several of those suggestions. In Leelah's case I would say that she took her own life. Carolla's phraseology, "died by suicide" works.

That change in inflection helps us to focus and dig to find out what contributed to driving the person to such a final conclusion.

I don't know that it actually does.

It shapes the mind of the person asking the question maybe. The only one who can provide the rationale for the action taken tends to be unavailable to provide answers. Even then, there is no guarantee that the individual taking such an action is exercising a rationale any of us would agree with or even begin to understand.

 

[chansen]

John has a point. I have no doubt that Pontifex was just trying to explain how he sees transgenderism, and it is perhaps how his personal community of Christians sees transgenderism - as a disorder. Even the Vatican sees it as a disorder, so we can't be surprised when we see this position taken.

Like the issue of homosexuality, there is an "ick factor" at play here, and I'm not immune. I have zero sexual interest in men, and zero interest in identifying as a female. Brave stand, wasn't it? Hardly.

Given that I don't like these things, it would be very easy to say that they are bad, gross, indecent, against some natural order, and if I was religious, I'm sure I could find scripture to back up the charge of abomination unto the Lord.

What time and perspective gives us, is the realization that some people are wired this way, it's not hurting anyone, and really, why the hell should I even care about someone else's sexual identity? It doesn't affect me, so why would I try to impose my sexual values on them? It's hard enough growing up straight and identifying with the genitalia you were born with. Leave others be to figure it out for themselves.

What trips people up on their way to that realization, is the belief that their God has a say in this that trumps all.

Christianity again has its work cut out for it. The attitudes and values of some Christians, and we're not talking insignificant numbers of Christians here, despite what you want to think, is openly hostile to their own kids of they fall outside the norms. And I don't know how you fix this.

 

[RitaTG]

..............................
Christianity again has its work cut out for it. The attitudes and values of some Christians, and we're not talking insignificant numbers of Christians here, despite what you want to think, is openly hostile to their own kids of they fall outside the norms. And I don't know how you fix this.

Amen........ I don't know how to fix this but I have to try.....
Too many are stuck in such churches and families ...... so ..... I have to try ......
I will not walk away ..... there must be something positive I can do.....

 

[chansen]

You are, Rita. I don't know how you do it. I couldn't.

 

[paradox3]

Re: the language we use to describe suicide.

When I was working in the mental health field, we were mindful not to use the expression "successful suicide". As in "The client's suicide attempt was successful." I can't believe we ever said this but we did back in the day.

Thank goodness "successful suicide" has been replaced with the notion of "completed suicide". "Died by suicide" (as @Carolla said) or simply "suicided" are also used.