I don't vaccinate my child because it's my right to determine which diseases come back

[ChemGal]

Ah yes, the old conspiracy theory argument. Someone should invent a law, like godwins law, that it can't be used during a legitimate discussion.

What does that have to do with my comment?

 

[ChemGal]

I presume that there is a reason you cannot be immunized against pertussis. I would hope that such reason would be allowed to influence any court decision.

That said I find it unlikely, given the symptoms, that if you had pertussis you would happily put others at risk. There would be measures that allow you to mitigate against transmitting the disease and I hope you aren't advocating that you have the right to shed pertussis virii over anyone you please.

That's like driving without a seatbelt and hey, we have legislation for that.

Legislation is not a perfect solution.

Legislation can be a tool for shaping human behaviours.

Yes, my doctors have told me not to get vaccinated anymore, unless there's something with a very pressing need. I already missed the last booster from childhood as my titres were sufficient. Would I spread it on purpose? No. Chances are I wouldn't know I had it. There's also a very good chance I would end up in the ER due to my chronic throat issues. Things tend to spread quite well in ERs. I wouldn't want to be dragged into court because of that.

 

[ChemGal]

But we dont really have conflicting info about the safety of vaccines.

Some people died of the flu vaccine. Generally about 4000 people die of the flu in canada every year. And the majority of them are the elderly

Diseases kill.

Diseases cause damage to the patient

Diseases spread easily to the immuno compromised person

Vaccination is preventative health care. It should be mandatory.

Dont vaccinate your kid? Dont come to our public school. And dont fly on our airplanes

I'm fine with this as long as their are medical exemptions. I'm not ok with telling a kid that they can't be at school because they have an allergy or some other medical reason to not be vaccinated.

 

[ChemGal]

Kimmio i think there are different tyoes if people who dont vaccinate and it doesnt surprise me thatyou know lots from BC

I suspect California is also a high no vaccine state too.

The uneducated and religiously fundamentalist type dont vaccinate. The uneducated because they are perhaps poor, dont have healthcare.

The fundamentalist because they believe in no medicine ( some groups)

The other big group is the educated yuppie

Theones who know better than everyone.

They eat organic. They are wealthy

They get info from the Jenny mcCarthys of the world.

They read about annecdotal cases of reactions

They conveniently ignore the deaths from disease

They say measles is a minor disease, forgetting the deaths that occured in the past. And totally ignoring the morbidity


And yes, i expect that BC has more of this latter group of people. It is the hold over of the wildwest. The idea that we should be Libertarians. And not be told what to do.


Have drug companies made mistakes in the past? Sure. Thalidomide jumps to mind.

But we have been vaccinting for 50 years.

If someone doesnt want to vaccinte, it is their right. But it is our colective right that they not endanger anyone else. So restrictions should be made

Just think, you could be on a plane for 6 hours and the child behind you could have the start of measles, or chicken pox. And you are exposed, for hours

Or your child, sits beside some child at school who is unvaccinted and exposed and is sitting there , shedding virus for hours

Those sound like a list of people who are antivax. There are more who don't vaccinate, some with really good reasons.

 

[Ritafee]

There are few scientific, legal or ethical obstacles to holding non-vaccinating parents responsible to outbreaks caused by exposure to their infected family members. Medical and epidemiological science is sufficiently advanced to identify the source of transmission from one infected individual to another in many cases and establish a causal link sufficient to stand up in court...

Pretty much a done deal ... mandatory vaccination is the order of the day ... so unless you have enough money to afford to not vaccinate ... you really don't have a choice ... they know who you are and they will make you pay ... nothing to debate here ... just keep drinking the tap water ... which I am sure all of the pro mandatory vaccination people here do right?

 

[revjohn]

just keep drinking the tap water ... which I am sure all of the pro mandatory vaccination people here do right?

Yes I drink tap water. Where does your water come from?

 

[Ritafee]

Yes I drink tap water. Where does your water come from?

Before it comes out of my tap ... from our own well. There are no filters in between. How about you?

 

[revjohn]

Municipal water system. Apart from the standard municipal filtration no extra filtration is happening. Looks like we both drink tap water though even if it is differently sourced.

Make Kool-aid with yours?

 

[Ritafee]

Good rebuttle ... Reduce a mass tragedy to the level of banality ...Jonestown residents didn’t willingly drink poison—they were forced to do so. Jones gave them a choice: drink cyanide or be shot to death by armed guards. Living was not an alternative. Many decided to drink the “potion,” as Jones called it, with their families. Those who refused to comply were forcibly injected with it. A 12-year-old girl named Julie Ann Runnels kept spitting the poison out, so two of Jones’ lieutenants forced her to swallow by it by pulling her hair and clamping their hands over her nose and mouth. She did not “Drink the Kool-Aid.” She was murdered—as were all the 303 children who died that night.

 

[revjohn]

Wasn't that the inference you were actually aiming for originally?

That we who drink tap water are resigned to our own fate? Or was there some other inference regarding tap-water we were supposed to have triggered?

 

[Waterfall]

People who can be vaccinated and chose to be vacinated are protected but there is a certain segment of society who cannot be vaccinated and who, sadly, are probably most at risk if they were to get these preventable illnesses. Therefore you are risking their lives (like a paedetrician in the US said recently - the kids undergoing chemo, etc). Also vaccines - as many have pointed out - are not 100% foolproof in some cases.

What everyone seems to be missing here is that when children are vaccinated the virus can be transmitted to those who cannot be vaccinated or choose not to, up to five weeks after receiving the vaccine. So it is not just the unvaccinated putting others at risk. Most of us don"t usually know who has just been vaccinated either.

 

[Ritafee]

The inference was ... most people that I know that are extremely pro-vaccine do not trust water from municipal fed water taps. You are not one of those? No bottled water for you ... no hesitation drinking water from any tap that is available?

 

[chansen]

The inference was ... most people that I know that are extremely pro-vaccine do not trust water from municipal fed water taps.

What?

You are not one of those? No bottled water for you ... no hesitation drinking water from any tap that is available?

What the hell are you talking about? Seriously, that's a new one to me.

 

[RitaTG]

The inference was ... most people that I know that are extremely pro-vaccine do not trust water from municipal fed water taps. You are not one of those? No bottled water for you ... no hesitation drinking water from any tap that is available?

I am drinking tap water right now....... no hesitation.....
And yes all my children got their full set of vaccines as have my grandkids.....
Just good sensible parenting as far as I am concerned......
I do want to do all I can to protect my loved ones....

 

[revjohn]

The inference was ... most people that I know that are extremely pro-vaccine do not trust water from municipal fed water taps.

Fair enough. I apologize for jumping to the wrong conclusion.

You are not one of those?

No I am not one of those. I have no objection to flouride in drinking water.

No bottled water for you ...

Not usually. I've served rural congregations where there was no municipal system and the well water was not potable so bottled water was necessary.

no hesitation drinking water from any tap that is available?

Considering all the Boil Advisories I missed during seven years in NL because I refuse to listen to the country station I'm probably not as squeemish about it as I should be. If it runs, more or less clear and smells more or less fresh I'll drink it.

 

[Seeler]

Don't use the word crippled if you're not joking and you're not 'crippled'.

Has there ever been a medical cure to a chronic illness that a person was being treated for prior - not maintenance but complete cure - that brought a person back to their original healthy state? I think we see a lot more drugs being taken regularly, lifelong, to ward off symptoms but not many true cures for chronic illness.

I know that I am not up on all the politically correct terms. I have never heard before that 'crippled' was not acceptable.

How else should I say, "The accident she was in shattered her pelvis and it looks like she will be crippled by it." or "My aunt has been crippled by arthritis since she was young." or "I hope that I will be able to avoid being crippled by my Parkinsons."

I agree that a person should never be called 'a crippled' but that is a different use of the word.

 

[Ritafee]

This is NOW ...

• thousands of First Nations people in Canada have no access to clean drinking water, or any water at all, really. At last count, 91 bands across Canada were under boil-water advisories, including six in Manitoba -- Fox Lake, God's Lake, Lake Manitoba, Pauingassi, Pinaymootang and Wuskwi Sipihk. The folks on those reserves, mostly, have indoor plumbing. Their water-treatment plants just don't work properly, so they can't drink from the tap.

• There's a whole additional batch of First Nations homes, hundreds of them, especially in the Island Lake area, that have no indoor plumbing. People collect big pails and drive to communal water pumps, which freeze into ice sculptures in the winter. Or they might get a water delivery to a big plastic barrel out back. They have no indoor showers or toilets, using slop pails in winter and the outhouse in summer. During flu season, it's difficult to wash hands, so diseases such as H1N1 spread, especially to elders. It's hard to keep houses clean, when scrubbing the tub or mopping the floor means a trek to the pump that might take an hour. There's little point in having a washing machine, so laundry is done irregularly at communal machines down at the band office or school. You drink a Coke instead of a glass of water. You learn to line the slop pail with a shopping bag for less-gross disposal.

• It's a problem made more baffling by Ottawa's inability to just fix it. Money has flowed in recent federal budgets, but slowly. In Wasagamack First Nation, for example, at last check about 500 homes still needed retrofitting. At the current funding pace, it will take another five years to get plumbing for everyone. If five years sounds like a long time to spend in lineups for bottled water, try 18.

• Shoal Lake 40 First Nation, just on the other side of the border in Ontario, has been under a boil-water advisory for that long. They can't get a water-treatment plant built because they're an island with no all-weather road access. They're an island because of a diversion channel built a century ago to funnel murky water away from an aqueduct. The aqueduct was built to pipe Shoal Lake's water to Winnipeg, allowing the city to grow and thrive.

That was THEN ...

• Before the BCG vaccine trials were begun, the tuberculosis death rate had been reduced by half by marginal improvements in living conditions, and especially by segregating those with active tuberculosis,” wrote Lux.

• But vaccines were cheaper than paying to improve the conditions of Indian residential schools and reserves or treating people in sanatoriums which could turn into lengthy stays.

• Lux said the urgency to conduct the vaccine trials on First Nation infants in southern Saskatchewan was also driven by a fear that Indigenous people would infect the non-Indigenous population with TB.

• “They were seen as vectors of disease because TB rates in the non-Aboriginal community were falling quickly. They were better fed and housed, but not so on-reserve,” said Lux, in an interview. “My point in the article was that ...

TB wasn’t the big threat…the big threat was poverty because more kids died of poverty related diseases than from TB.”

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I know that I am not up on all the politically correct terms. I have never heard before that 'crippled' was not acceptable.

How else should I say, "The accident she was in shattered her pelvis and it looks like she will be crippled by it." or "My aunt has been crippled by arthritis since she was young." or "I hope that I will be able to avoid being crippled by my Parkinsons."

I agree that a person should never be called 'a crippled' but that is a different use of the word.

Considering, "the crippled girl" is demeaning - you'd best find another word(s) for describing mobility issues. Try using the word retarded in similar sentences as you used, to describe a person, and you will see why not too. I.e."the illness left her retarded." it's just not right.

 

[Justme]

Municipal water system. Apart from the standard municipal filtration no extra filtration is happening. Looks like we both drink tap water though even if it is differently sourced.

Actually municipal tap water is the safest water - it is tested many times a week and there are tight controls in place. Chances are your well water is only tested once a year if you do it yourself so if a herd of cows defecate near a creek and it leaches into the water table and there's e.coli you likely won't know until you get sick. It's also why that if I have to drink bottled water (I try not to) I choose something like Dasani which is water that has been filtred from the municipal water system whereas a spring water only has to be tested every ten years. (And I say that as a person who grew up on well water that was never contaminated).

Back to the matter of vaccination I thought this cartoon from the 1940s was telling - this same debate raged on around small pox it would seem
https://twitter.com/thereaIbanksy/status/562756455657656320/photo/1

 

[Justme]

Considering, "the crippled girl" is demeaning - you'd best find another word(s) for describing mobility issues. Try using the word retarded in similar sentences as you used, to describe a person, and you will see why not too. I.e."the illness left her retarded." it's just not right.

I believe that it is ok to say I hope that the disease does not cripple me but not that is a crippled girl. Kind of like people prefer not to be called schziophrenic but rather people who contend with/have, etc (Just like we would not call someone a cancerite or Parkinsonian/Parkinsonite). I would not like to be called a manic depressive but I have bipolar disorder. I guess you could say the disease will retard her growth but it's just easier to say delay. Retarded has a way more negative connotation.