DEATH CAFE, anyone?

[chansen]

To get back to death cafes, I can see the angle. I can see the niche they fill, partly because no one goes to church any more, and we still need a place to talk about life's big events. We just have no interest in people injecting their god into the equation.

If someone is looking for cliches, they can find those anywhere, including the church. If a cafe has no good answers waiting, then neither does a church. Sometimes there are no answers, only conversation, and listening, and relating. And maybe through that, is where some people will find a semblance of closure, or at least pick up enough pieces to be able to move on.

 

[RitaTG]

Quite a sobering response chansen ...... sincerely ....well done....
I too have a problem with the bible being the "inerrant" final say....
In my opinion, even the bible itself alludes to it not being the be all and end all.....
Perhaps we should start a thread on this topic?

 

[BetteTheRed]

... If a cafe has no good answers waiting, then neither does a church. Sometimes there are no answers, only conversation, and listening, and relating. ....

...and THAT is what makes a living congregation. A bunch of people who are there to listen to others and imagine themselves in those other's shoes. And yes, I would agree with revJohn that a virtual death cafe would be missing a few vital senses - sight, hearing, scent, touch. But it might meet one dimension of the total need, so perhaps we might try it for those who are interested.

 

[revjohn]

When engineers or engineering goes wrong, there are investigations, often lawsuits, and sometimes inquiries. We strive to get at the heart of the matter, and the practice of engineering can change, and has changed as a result.

That doesn't happen with faith.

Actually chansen it does. Constantly. You simply do not know what it looks like.

Why do you think there are so many different denominations? All are a reaction to something and each new denomination has changed their stand on some issue which a previous denomination championed. Few of the changes were seismic, most would be considered minor to the casual observer.

Change still happens and believe it or not practices within denominations have changed without the need for schism and a new denomination.

There is a never ending stream

No hyperbole here. What is the flow rate on that never ending stream?

of these examples of fatal decisions made on faith, and when they wind up being fatal, people just throw up their hands and say that it was their right as faithful people.

These examples you claim. Are they the norm or are they aberations to the norm? Does that make a difference? If I look at every bridge that falls and find the same or similar circumstances in each failure how does that explain the overwhelming number of bridges that aren't falling?

And while I can agree that it's their right to be stupid and reject treatment for themselves, someone should be looking up and saying, "What the hell is wrong with Christianity that it can lead people in this direction, and how do we fix it?"

Again, you want to treat bridges standing as if they are bridges that failed. It isn't Christianity as a whole that is leading people in this direction (which direction are we talking about or does it help to be deliberately vague?)

And it's not just people rejecting treatment for themselves. There are the current examples of two first nations girls with leukemia who are being treated by a "traditional therapies".

Is this the norm? I agree with you that it is screwed up. I don't think it is as commonplace as you paint it and to be frank I find that dishonest of you.

Do we go all henny penny when a bridge fails? No, we generally don't. We seem to understand that each bridge is a unique event. If we see that the same construction firm has been building the bridges that fail we would look into it. If we line up all of the instances of folk rejecting treatment for X or Y circumstance we can probably identify the problem. Not everyone is going to be impacted by that problem.

Blood transfusion for example, is that something Christianity as a whole accepts or rejects? Or, do we just assume it is a problem in Christianity because the Jehovah's witnesses reject it? Setting aside for the moment the issue of whether or not Jehovah's witnesses qualify as Christian.

I also find it completely misleading for you to quote cases which Christianity and Christian faith are not driving factors. Indigenous medicine vs European medicine is.

The parent of one of the girls is a pastor.

Who just happens to be aboriginal so you're right. This is completely a Christian thing.

But lets look into the Christian connection and see what we can see.

Ken Sault is listed as the pastor of the New Credit Fellowship Centre. The New Credit Fellowship Centre is affiliated with Reality Outreach Ministries. All I know about Reality Outreach Ministries is that it tours two dramas called "Heaven's Gates and Hell's Flames" and "Last Chance". I don't think I have seen either.

From what I have seen from Reality Outreach Ministries own videos of both programs I would probably gag.

I'd love to take a look at their doctrinal statements but apparently they don't have any they wish to make public. That, in and of itself is unusual. The Reality Outreach Ministries page shows where the New Credit Fellowship Centre is located but fails to identify who the pastor is or when the congregation meets for worship. Great outreach. Not typical of most Christian Churches in the area at all.

when decisions like this are made, time and again, on the back of Christian scripture or other faith systems

More hyperbole. Sure a vision of Jesus figure in 50% of the two instances you point at (which makes it 100% faith based for both) with a sample size that huge the margin for error must be plus or minus 0%

We change our version of "scripture" all the time. We improve upon it.

For the most part it isn't what is written in scripture which is causing a problem. Not even in the Makayla Sault case. It is how individuals choose to interpret scripture and that doesn't apply (near as I can tell) to the Makayla Sault case, they appear to be trusting in a vision and traditional medicine.

Returning to our Jehovah Witness example about refusing blood transfusions. They base that upon a text which forbids the eating of blood. How they can look at a transfusion as being the same as digestion is quite beyond me. I imagine that there are many more Christians who are similarly puzzled and we have pointed out that transfusion and digestion are actually very different. The Watchtower refuses to listen so, you're right, that is all of Christianity making the same stupidly false equation.

Christians just say they were reading the code book wrong, and throw up their hands.

Some Christians may. All Christians won't.

For example when this particular Christian was told by several doctors in NL(four to be exact) that it was impossible for his son to be experiencing an early onset of a Bi-polar disorder I went straight to scripture, blindly opened my Bible and placed my finger squarely on Isaiah 19: 5 to read, "The waters of the Nile will be dried up, and the river will be parched and dry;" which I'm sure you will agree how we Christians make every single decision in life. Just this morning I agonized about whole grain cheerios or grape-nuts and was very happy to receive counsel from Matthew 26: 37, "He took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee and began to be grieved and agitated."

I get that you are comforted by the belief that we Christians are dunces.

For the record I moved my family to get better help from my son. I prayed furiously that we would find it but I didn't throw up my hands and quit.

You'll say that my prayers were of absolutely no effect. But you cannot measure what I was going through at the time and you don't know how close I was to giving up on everything.

And newsflash. I'm a very average Christian so I reject your fabrications about all Christians ignoring proven medicines to put their children at risk so that they can bring about some miraculous intervention from God.

I admit that there are Christians out there who will do just that.

I don't think it is anywhere near as common as you would like us to believe.

 

[Seeler]

When engineers or engineering goes wrong, there are investigations, often lawsuits, and sometimes inquiries. We strive to get at the heart of the matter, and the practice of engineering can change, and has changed as a result.

That doesn't happen with faith. There is a never ending stream of these examples of fatal decisions made on faith, and when they wind up being fatal, people just throw up their hands and say that it was their right as faithful people.

And while I can agree that it's their right to be stupid and reject treatment for themselves, someone should be looking up and saying, "What the hell is wrong with Christianity that it can lead people in this direction, and how do we fix it?"

And it's not just people rejecting treatment for themselves. There are the current examples of two first nations girls with leukemia who are being treated by a "traditional therapies". The parent of one of the girls is a pastor.

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/whitecoat/pastepisodes/makayla-s-choice-1.2809211

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...can_now_doom_their_sick_children_dimanno.html

I do not for a second believe that the parents of these girls want to see them die. But when decisions like this are made, time and again, on the back of Christian scripture or other faith systems, at what point are going to figure out that the bible or faith is broken and needs to be fixed?

Every time a practice in engineering is discovered as broken, we fix it. We change the codes. If codes are ambiguous, we clarify them. We change our version of "scripture" all the time. We improve upon it.

Christians just say they were reading the code book wrong, and throw up their hands.

I listened to the program on White Coat / Black Art. My heart was torn for those parents and those children.
I watched my child (an adult but still my child) suffer through chemo. She did it knowing that just a year earlier her neighbour had also had cancer and died as a result of the chemo. I'm glad my daughter stuck it out; that despite the pain, the nausea, the damage it was causing her body (some of that damage irreparable). She is alive. She is able to raise her children (her neighbour also had children). She is able to enjoy life - despite the weakness, swelling, and occasional brain fog that was a result of her treatment. I still have my daughter. I thank God. I thank the doctors and nurses and technicians at the hospital. I thank modern science that is still working, trying to improve existing treatments and trying to find a better way.
And I am not sure what I would advise those parents who saw their daughter suffering almost to the point of preferring death to 'living like this'. So they have turned to traditional medicine - their daughter is responding. She is happy. She has quality of life.
No one knows if she would have died of her leukemia, or of the chemo. Perhaps she would have gone through six months of hell and then died. Perhaps she would have recovered - maybe without the after-effects my daughter experienced.
And perhaps the traditional medicine is giving her some quality of life - a life well lived.

I don't know what I would advise those parents. I'm thankful I don't have to make that decision. I would undoubtedly go for chemo if it were my child. That said, I wouldn't choose it for myself. I'd try less drastic treatment, pain medication when needed, and acceptance of the way things are.

 

[BetteTheRed]

I have a friend who's gone through a lot of chemo. She likens it to surgery performed with a rusty saw. She's alive. Sort of.

Thank Godde I never had to make the decision, but I would probably have chosen chemo for my children. But I'm Western, and was raised to trust Western medicine. For myself, though? I don't know.

 

[KayTheCurler]

I think Chansen has nailed it. It is thoughts and words and others peoples' views and caring listening and gentle feedback that may have the power to give answers. A lot of people would be feeling uncomfortable with a different best answer for each person which is what I think is true!

Possibly in an ideal world a church could provide this - but if so, I haven't experienced it so far in my life. It would be easy to quote 'this' hurtful, unhelpful comment made by a Christian to a person with a terminal disease. Equally easy to quote 'this' helpful, comforting, empowering comment made by a Christian. I'm not going there because I don't see it as enlightening. All I can hope for is at least one helpful, empowering, supportive person to be around as I prepare to leave this earth (in a bodily sense). That day is inevitable, and drawing closer.

 

[Neo]

There's definitely a niche for such a place as a Death Cafe. Currently people in the west can either listen to the empty platitudes such as Qwerty pointed out or go to church and listen to how becoming a Christian is the only way to guarantee their place in an impossible Heaven, as opposed to spending eternity in an even more impossible Hell.

 

[revjohn]

Currently people in the west can either listen to the empty platitudes such as Qwerty pointed out or go to church and listen to how becoming a Christian is the only way to guarantee their place in an impossible Heaven, as opposed to spending eternity in an even more impossible Hell.

Sigh.

Not only are you presenting a false choice. You are deliberately setting it up between two distinctly negative stereotypes.

Just keep talking about us Christians like we aren't in the room or even actually exist for any reason other than to be lumped into one stupid out of touch mass that can be kicked whenever some ego needs stroking.

 

[Mendalla]

And those really are not the only choices in the West anymore and Neo should know that as well as anyone. The "New Age" movement, with which his beliefs would generally be lumped in, has a solid following though it's not as organized as most Christian denominations since it is very individualistic and fragmented. There are many Westerners adopting Buddhist or Hindu ideas, including their notions of reincarnation. There are pagans with different ideas again. And there is a diversity of ideas in Western Christianity, not just the "turn or burn" that he puts forward. Where are Calvinism and universalism (and other ideas of Grace) in his conception of Christianity?

Yes, the platitudes and the bad theology are there and quite visible, but we are hardly stuck in a dichotomy between them.

 

[Seeler]

There's definitely a niche for such a place as a Death Cafe. Currently people in the west can either listen to the empty platitudes such as Qwerty pointed out or go to church and listen to how becoming a Christian is the only way to guarantee their place in an impossible Heaven, as opposed to spending eternity in an even more impossible Hell.

But what is to keep the empty platitudes from being the default position of the Death Cafe. Statements like 'It's not right for children to die before their parents.' or 'In the natural order of things, children bury their parents.' - statements that so bothered my sister could just as easily be uttered in a Death Cafe as in a church or a library.

 

[Seeler]

I often wonder about support groups - like those with breast cancer (my daughter won't go to one), or for parents who have lost a child. Do they really provide a place where people can pour their hearts out, where they can be honest "I feel so guilty that sometimes I wished he would die and get it over with. I was so tired and it was inevitable anyway." Or do they offer the usual platitudes, "Buck up." "You are lucky you have other children. You have to live for them." "Tomorrow you will feel better." "Time heals."

 

[Delightful Life]

But what is to keep the empty platitudes from being the default position of the Death Cafe. Statements like 'It's not right for children to die before their parents.' or 'In the natural order of things, children bury their parents.' - statements that so bothered my sister could just as easily be uttered in a Death Cafe as in a church or a library.

that's democracy for ya

 

[chansen]

But what is to keep the empty platitudes from being the default position of the Death Cafe. Statements like 'It's not right for children to die before their parents.' or 'In the natural order of things, children bury their parents.' - statements that so bothered my sister could just as easily be uttered in a Death Cafe as in a church or a library.

What's to keep empty platitudes from being the default position of any church? Nothing. If you're gonna find platitudes of the empty variety, by my experience, they're in ample supply in the churches.

Again, I can imagine that, if done well, these coffee shops might provide a valuable place for people to go, not hear about some God they find ridiculous, but find conversation with others in a similar place.

As far as group therapy, I dislike it and do not find it comforting to me. I did my group therapy in children's hospitals, talking. Usually to just one other parent at a time. Sometimes over coffee. That probably did more for me than anything.

 

[Mendalla]

What's to keep empty platitudes from being the default position of any church? Nothing. If you're gonna find platitudes of the empty variety, by my experience, they're in ample supply in the churches.

see also: My thread on the "God called him Home" platitude.

 

[KayTheCurler]

Support groups can only be as helpful as the knowledge of the individuals lets them be. I tried attending a Grief Support group that wasn't helpful to me but others thought it was great. No doubt some churches do 'support' well but that wasn't my experience when I was attending one. Most people seemed to project a fear of mentioning death and loss in any way. If I shared my feelings honestly there was either a prolonged silence or an outraged voice telling me I shouldn't feel 'that' or I should get over it.

 

[Waterfall]

I have heard some people mutter religious platitudes that wouldn't even consider themselves a believer or attend church.

 

[Neo]

Sigh.

Not only are you presenting a false choice. You are deliberately setting it up between two distinctly negative stereotypes.

Just keep talking about us Christians like we aren't in the room or even actually exist for any reason other than to be lumped into one stupid out of touch mass that can be kicked whenever some ego needs stroking.

Are you saying that the vast majority of Christians don't believe that only Christians to the Heaven, whilst rest go to hell, where "hell" is defined as somewhere between and a simple absence of God and a hell fire of torment?

 

[revjohn]

Are you saying that the vast majority of Christians don't believe that only Christians to the Heaven, whilst rest go to hell, where "hell" is defined as somewhere between and a simple absence of God and a hell fire of torment?

I am saying that. The vast majority of Christians may not open the door wider than Judaism. The vast majority of us Christians don't believe heaven to be quite so exclusive as you presume we do. Certainly in the West which was the first context you set for the comments. If you wanted to amend your comments to globally I'd probably have to hand you the generalization because Christians in the developing world currently tend towards literalism and dispensationalism

Furthermore I am saying that you have been in conversation with such Christians throughout your involvement with WonderCafe.ca and Wondercafe2 who routinely reject what you are lifting up as Christian.

 

[Neo]

And those really are not the only choices in the West anymore and Neo should know that as well as anyone. The "New Age" movement, with which his beliefs would generally be lumped in, has a solid following though it's not as organized as most Christian denominations since it is very individualistic and fragmented. There are many Westerners adopting Buddhist or Hindu ideas, including their notions of reincarnation. There are pagans with different ideas again. And there is a diversity of ideas in Western Christianity, not just the "turn or burn" that he puts forward. Where are Calvinism and universalism (and other ideas of Grace) in his conception of Christianity?

Yes, the platitudes and the bad theology are there and quite visible, but we are hardly stuck in a dichotomy between them.

Things are changing, that's for sure, I suppose I was taking some liberty with the stereotypes But for much of the western world, these are still the biggest choices, you are either a Christian or you have no religion. Stats Canada, for 2011, says that the vast majority of Canadians, some 22 million, are Christians. While the next largest group. about 7 million, have "no religion". I suppose many of new agers and the Wiccan's, etc, would be lumped into this category.