DEATH CAFE, anyone?

[Neo]

..
Furthermore I am saying that you have been in conversation with such Christians throughout your involvement with WonderCafe.ca and Wondercafe2 who routinely reject what you are lifting up as Christian.

So what does this mean? I should not speak my mind, I am not being respectful, the majority rules?

There are people here who routinely reject what I'm saying simply because I am the one saying it. It happens all the time. I usually try to ignore the cliques.

 

[Neo]

I am saying that. The vast majority of Christians may not open the door wider than Judaism. The vast majority of us Christians don't believe heaven to be quite so exclusive as you presume we do. Certainly in the West which was the first context you set for the comments. If you wanted to amend your comments to globally I'd probably have to hand you the generalization because Christians in the developing world currently tend towards literalism and dispensationalism

So let me ask you this, if I walked into any church in North America tomorrow and asked the pastor or the priest if a Muslim or a Hindu could get into Heaven, what do you think the answer would be?

 

[GeoFee]

The fear of death poses us many problems of substantial magnitude and serious consequence.

I love to sit and visit with strangers met by chance in some favoured coffee shop.

I was sprinkled shortly following my birth.

I was fully immersed at the age of thirty.

At sixty I journeyed to the land of my birth, Friesland. I walked the lanes of the village where I was born. Stood in the Church where I had been sprinkled, all those years ago.

I had come to stand by the grave of my paternal grandfather, for whom I was named. Standing there, having come full circle, I embraced my own death; agreeing to all of its terms and conditions. I walked away a dying body animated by a living and learning soul.

I know the moment of death is waiting and I anticipate its appearing. I only hope there is a little poetry possible and a lot of love present. Would be delighted to round out the sequence by slipping away at ninety. Not sure I'd care to go till 120.

Bleeding out after being crashed into at some intersection, just two blocks from home, does not appeal to me in the least.

But I accept it.

George

 

[revjohn]

So what does this mean? I should not speak my mind, I am not being respectful, the majority rules?

Speaking your mind is not a problem provided your mind is open enough to hear what others are saying.

Speaking one's mind and stating a truth are not necessarily equivalent.

There are people here who routinely reject what I'm saying simply because I am the one saying it. It happens all the time. I usually try to ignore the cliques.

Trust me Neo, I'm not objecting to what you said because it was you saying it.

I'm objecting to what you said because I don't believe it to be true.

 

[revjohn]

So let me ask you this, if I walked into any church in North America tomorrow and asked the pastor or the priest if a Muslim or a Hindu could get into Heaven, what do you think the answer would be?

I don't know what "any" pastor or priest would answer. I expect that there would be a range of answers.

Now let me ask you this.

I qualify as pastor and/or priest. If you walked into my church today and asked me who could get into heaven how would I answer?

 

[BetteTheRed]

*Bette waves hands wildly* Me, Me!

Upon this question by Neo about a (non-Christian) soul's eventual destination, RevJohn would gently and gravely announce that God's grace is not limited by human's thinking and that God will do as God pleases without interference from us.

 

[Neo]

*Bette waves hands wildly* Me, Me!

Upon this question by Neo about a (non-Christian) soul's eventual destination, RevJohn would gently and gravely announce that God's grace is not limited by human's thinking and that God will do as God pleases without interference from us.

Yes, well said. Calvinists believe humans are divided into two major camps, those who are predestined to experience God, and those who are not. We as human beings cannot do anything about this choice.

 

[Mendalla]

Statscan needs to update their options for religion, me thinks, because "No Religion" as a default doesn't cut it. Too many people can slip through the cracks (do they include Wicca or other pagans even?). I didn't get the long form census last time so I'm not even sure what the options are without hitting Statscan to see the results.

 

[Mendalla]

So let me ask you this, if I walked into any church in North America tomorrow and asked the pastor or the priest if a Muslim or a Hindu could get into Heaven, what do you think the answer would be?

In many (but not all) United, and other liberal churches, you would be fairly likely to hear "yes" or at least not a clear "no" if they believe in heaven and hell at all. Universalism seems to be a default (not necessarily a consciously thought out one) in liberal and progressive circles, perhaps more as a rejection of the idea of "Hell" than anything. Of course the extreme end of the progressive movement (e.g. West Hill United) don't even worry much about the afterlife anymore.

In more traditional and conservative churches, they may or may not. Depends on theology.

Fundamentalists? Definitely not.

Catholics? Hard to say. Pope Francis seems to be a bit more easy on this point than his predecessors but I'm not sure how reflective of the church that is.

Orthodox? No idea. Don't have enough experience of that family of churches.

IOW, there isn't a single, simple answer for all Christians. And I'm saying that as an ex-Christian who does not believe in heaven and hell.

 

[Mendalla]

Really, this comes down to the same argument I was having with @chansen in another thread. Discussion of Christianity requires a bit more nuance than @Neo and @chansen tend to bring to it at times. It's a very (surprisingly, even) diverse family of organizations even if they happen to have The Bible and Jesus as a common core.

 

[Seeler]

So let me ask you this, if I walked into any church in North America tomorrow and asked the pastor or the priest if a Muslim or a Hindu could get into Heaven, what do you think the answer would be?

I can't speak for other churches, but in the two UCC I've been most closely associated with over the past 40 years the answer would most certainly be "Yes, of course." Then we might get into a discussion of what 'heaven' means.

 

[BetteTheRed]

... I didn't get the long form census last time so I'm not even sure what the options are without hitting Statscan to see the results....

No-one got the long form this time, because Harper's government killed it. There's going to be a permanent hole in our statistical database thanks to those idiots.

 

[Mendalla]

No-one got the long form this time, because Harper's government killed it. There's going to be a permanent hole in our statistical database thanks to those idiots.

That's not quite what happened but close. It's still there but it's optional so it's really just another government-funded poll now which makes the statistics collected less valid and useful than when it was true random survey with a more or less guaranteed rate of return.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Optional doesn't work because you can't compare it to past years. It's also, of course, impossible to get a 'genuine' statistical sample if it's optional. They are absolute idiots.

 

[Mendalla]

That's basically what I said, Bette. I wasn't supporting Harper, just making it clear what he actually did.

 

[BetteTheRed]

I know, just one of my bug bears. Huge time. I am a big believer in making decisions based on Impartial Factual Information, and I am very disturbed by the contemporary trend towards making political decisions based on feelings and unsubstantiated opinions.

 

[GeoFee]

Nothing more frightening or dangerous than an unthinking mass moved by the emotional manipulations of a minority seeking only the increase of power. Who now can distinguish between the world of advertising and the world of propaganda?

Hubris is rising and Nemesis is waiting in the wings.

Death café, anyone?

 

[Neo]

GeoFee, whether it's a Death Cafe, a Life~Ever~After Cafe or a WonderCafe, it's time this taboo subject came out of the closet and people started taking about it.

 

[Mendalla]

GeoFee, whether it's a Death Cafe, a Life~Ever~After Cafe or a WonderCafe, it's time this taboo subject came out of the closet and people started taking about it.

I don't think Geofee's addressing the thread topic. I think he's addressing the side topic about Harper's abuse of research.

 

[GeoFee]

Lightly touching on both.