TRUMP - Some people think......... How do you feel?

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Making sandwiches is nice. But it doesn't touch the great problems of this world. It doesn't address mass starvation. And it's not much use in feeding the people of Yemen when the U.S. policy is not to allow sandwiches in. Making gifts for mother's day is nice. But it does little to relieve the rising tide of poverty in a world in which the very wealthy are getting far, far the most of money in our society. Nor does it help our constant wars and mass murder.

There are questions Christians have to ask about this, and decisions they have to make. But they generally avoid facing up to this.

For example, is capitalism - as it now is - anti-Christian? When we insist on calling greed 'competition' are we ignoring the nature of it?

Down here, we have a multi-billionaire who doesn't pay any taxes. But from time to time, he will give money to some cause (compatible with his interests) - and be hailed for his philanthropy at suppers for the business association.
He also built a small church, named it after his family, and operates it in summer hiring a rentarev, always a DD, nothing but the best. And, of course, the rentarev never mentions awkward issues.

Outreach is very nice, offends no-one ----and accomplishes little. meanwhile, we pay staff starvation wages at Walmart, are actively starving people to death, murdering people to please our mining companies in Latin America, Congo, etc. The savagery of Canadian mining companies in Latin America is notorious.

Essentially, we are a society with a ravenous and brutal aristocracy. And I'm afraid outreach has little impact on that.

And this is the sort of issue I have never heard raised from a pulpit.

Medicare in Canada - a tremendous improvement on control of health care by the greedy - was made possible by a Baptist clergyman. But that's a very, very rare exception.
 
Graeme, you do what you can where you are. ISARC, for instance, was instrumental in pushing for the minimum wage increase. We have an active "Right Relations" team. We are about to embark on refugee sponsorship #3. Protesting amorphous wars is a little farther down on the list of "what we can actually do".
 
Graeme, you do what you can where you are. ISARC, for instance, was instrumental in pushing for the minimum wage increase. We have an active "Right Relations" team. We are about to embark on refugee sponsorship #3. Protesting amorphous wars is a little farther down on the list of "what we can actually do".

Think globally, act locally is the old catchphrase, IIRC. Or, as the great sage Lao Tzu put it so eloquently:

“If there is to be peace in the world,
There must be peace in the nations.
If there is to be peace in the nations,
There must be peace in the cities.
If there is to be peace in the cities,
There must be peace between neighbors.
If there is to be peace between neighbors,
There must be peace in the home.
If there is to be peace in the home,
There must be peace in the heart.”

For which the tl:dr is to that peace must happen bottom up, not top down. A Christian parallel might be the hymn "Let there be peace on Earth, and let it begin with me."
 
redemptive mission of God ...

Cyclic recall ... so that what goes round comes round ...

Does it all come back at you in the end?
 
Thanks, Mendalla.

No, Bette the Red, it's not enough to do nice things. We have to think about the way our countries are run. It's not enough to do good deeds. We have to engage in serious thought about whether the governments we elect and the wealthy of our society are behaving in ways consistent with Christian thinking.

As it is, they don't. And because they don't, we kill and we abuse others for them.
 
Most of the churches in Germany said nothing about Hitler. Indeed, they supported him. The British churches supported Britain in the dreadful butchery and plundering of its colonial days. American Catholics and Christians have cheered on almost non-stop wars of the U.S. since 1776, and their abuse of the American people.
 
And how is having an all-candidates meeting asking pointed questions about how governments operate, doing "nice things"? I think that's education of the populace. Every single UCCan member in Canada could vote the "same way" and it would be a drop in the bucket. But if every single UCCan congregation insisted on grilling candidates for every election on the real world impact of their policies, it might change the conversation in the right direction.

How is a pushing for an increase in the minimum wage "doing nice things"? We've taken some flak from conservative types, within and outside the congregation, for that one.

The problem is that you're asking congregations to look at a big picture, a long view, and we're trying to staunch the wounds of the people right beside us.
 
Yes. I am asking congregations to look at the big picture. Murdering millions to please billionaires is looking at the big picture. Would Jesus have ignored it?
 
The world has just taken an extremely dangerous turn. Trump, who first downplayed the foofaraw about Russia accused by Britain about the attack on a Russian spy in Britain, has now come full circle, withdrawing large numbers of diplomatic staff from Russia which is retaliating by withdrawing its staff from the U.S. And much of the UN has joined the American position.

This is commonly the prelude to war.

To add to it, Trump will soon be visiting Putin - and it's hard to believe this will benefit peace.

I also note that Kim Jong un has taken a secret and mysterious trip to China. And China has placed its army on full alert.
Trump will be meeting, to with him.

I've closely followed credible news media on this. And it seem obvious that British premier Theresa May has been lying through her teeth. There is NO evidence the chemical used in the attempted murder comes from Russia - and that opinion comes from high-ranking British scientists in charge of chemical weapons. And there are many, many other reasons to doubt May. But we aren't hearing that from most of our news media.

And John Bolton is now the key figure in Washington.

There is a possibility, maybe more than that, that American big money wants these wars NOW. The U.S. is declining as a world power and China, in particular, is growing. The Project for the New American Century was designed to meet this danger. American big money intends to rule the world. It is quite likely the decision that the U.S. must move now or never for world conquest.
Very dangerous indeed!
 
What's very, very strange is that Trump has not given raging public talks about this. In fact, he has been very, very quiet, with all the ranting coming from Bolton.

I have a suspicion that bigger money than Trump might have forced Bolton on him so that Trump is no longer in control.
 
Yes. I am asking congregations to look at the big picture. Murdering millions to please billionaires is looking at the big picture. Would Jesus have ignored it?

Interesting question. Can you point me to the chapter and verse in any of the Gospels where Jesus condemns the Roman Empire and all of its wars, etc.

In fact, you'll hear "you will hear of wars and rumours of wars, but do not be alarmed," or "the poor you will always have with you."

Yes, those quotes are somewhat out of context - but they do point to the reality that Jesus was, I believe, a practitioner of what we might call "realpolitik." We can beat our heads against the wall trying to create the perfect world, and we'll only get ourselves frustrated and eventually give up or we'll get paralyzed just thinking about it because we can't do it.

I'm not convinced that Jesus wouldn't have sided with Bette on this. Do what you can where you can for as many as you can.

You speak often about how delightful it was for you to speak at synagogues where the Jewish congregants wanted you to address the big issues, etc. I'm sure it was delightful and I'm sure you taught them a great deal. But what - precisely - changed in the world as a result of all that speaking you did? Perhaps making sandwiches for the homeless is a far more practical way of helping than trying to stop the United States from doing ... whatever. I'm not saying we shouldn't speak about such things, but in terms of what we can realistically accomplish, I think acting at the micro rather than the macro level might be far more practical.
 
What's very, very strange is that Trump has not given raging public talks about this. In fact, he has been very, very quiet, with all the ranting coming from Bolton.

I have a suspicion that bigger money than Trump might have forced Bolton on him so that Trump is no longer in control.
Trump is being quiet, possibly because his porn star accusers are borrowing from his playbook and are going on prime time TV to skewer him, and he has the TV on 24/7 because he's an oddball president. The $130,000 payout money to "Stormy" could add to the list of possible impeachable offenses if it is tied to campaign finances - his wife is not happy. His lawyers are burning out and dropping like flies. Nobody wants to represent him. I'm not sure his concern about anything extends beyond himself and what's on TV. He's probably more interested in how his personal affairs are being reported than in geo-politics. Those affairs, unlike geo-politics, are something he actually has knowledge about that could bring him down personally and "professionally".

I hope that's more the reason for his silence, anyhow.
 
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revsdd said ----
Interesting question. Can you point me to the chapter and verse in any of the Gospels where Jesus condemns the Roman Empire and all of its wars, etc.

In fact, you'll hear "you will hear of wars and rumours of wars, but do not be alarmed," or "the poor you will always have with you."

Yes, those quotes are somewhat out of context - but they do point to the reality that Jesus was, I believe, a practitioner of what we might call "realpolitik." We can beat our heads against the wall trying to create the perfect world, and we'll only get ourselves frustrated and eventually give up or we'll get paralyzed just thinking about it because we can't do it.

I'm not convinced that Jesus wouldn't have sided with Bette on this. Do what you can where you can for as many as you can.

You speak often about how delightful it was for you to speak at synagogues where the Jewish congregants wanted you to address the big issues, etc. I'm sure it was delightful and I'm sure you taught them a great deal. But what - precisely - changed in the world as a result of all that speaking you did? Perhaps making sandwiches for the homeless is a far more practical way of helping than trying to stop the United States from doing ... whatever. I'm not saying we shouldn't speak about such things, but in terms of what we can realistically accomplish, I think acting at the micro rather than the macro level might be far more practical.
_______________________________________ now my response....
There are lots of things Jesus never mentioned. He never spoke of the dangers of drunk driving. He never mentioned corrupt politicians. He was never critical of government torture or of public executions. He never was critical of the lack of public education - though that would later be a priority of His church. He never mentioned the lack of government social services. Or the very unequal distribution of wealth and opportunity.

Jesus lived over 2000 years ago in a world very different from this one. It was a world in which nobody even thought of challenging a government's right to do whatever it wished. There was no sense, none whatever, that the people had any right to question or judge their governments. The very notion of individual rights didn't exist. - and would not exist for a very long, long time.

To the best of my knowledge, He never specifically criticized abortion, just as he never warned people not to cross a street on a red light. He never warned against capitalism because there was no capitalism to warn about.

He never criticized government use of torture, though it was common. Do you seriously think He would have endorsed the American 'black' camps of our time?

By the standards you suggest, all the German churches had to do in following the teaching of Jesus was to make sandwiches for the Jews in the death camps. I cannot imagine Jesus accepting the murderous behaviour of His churches over the centuries or engaging in or supporting mass murder and deliberate starvation - and torture and an avaricious search for personal wealth.

We do not live in the world of 2,000 years ago. We have to adapt the spirit of the teaching of Jesus to the very different world we live in.

unless, of course, we all just wish to wear robes and sandals and drink wine all day - which is not a bad idea.
 
did anyone else get a mysterious text from their service provider on they by April 6, 2018 being required by Canadian law to alert you if your area is in life threatening danger? omfgwtf???!!

it looks like i can't opt out of it (checked my sp's FAQ)

wtf book am i living in? am i dreaming???

we r all Israli's now?

my sp says it is Alert Ready or Wireless Public Alerting

sysops: sorry if in wrong thread. feel free to delete or newthread...
 
There are lots of things Jesus never mentioned. He never spoke of the dangers of drunk driving. He never mentioned corrupt politicians. He was never critical of government torture or of public executions. He never was critical of the lack of public education - though that would later be a priority of His church. He never mentioned the lack of government social services. Or the very unequal distribution of wealth and opportunity.

Jesus lived over 2000 years ago in a world very different from this one. It was a world in which nobody even thought of challenging a government's right to do whatever it wished. There was no sense, none whatever, that the people had any right to question or judge their governments. The very notion of individual rights didn't exist. - and would not exist for a very long, long time.

To the best of my knowledge, He never specifically criticized abortion, just as he never warned people not to cross a street on a red light. He never warned against capitalism because there was no capitalism to warn about.

He never criticized government use of torture, though it was common. Do you seriously think He would have endorsed the American 'black' camps of our time?

By the standards you suggest, all the German churches had to do in following the teaching of Jesus was to make sandwiches for the Jews in the death camps. I cannot imagine Jesus accepting the murderous behaviour of His churches over the centuries or engaging in or supporting mass murder and deliberate starvation - and torture and an avaricious search for personal wealth.

We do not live in the world of 2,000 years ago. We have to adapt the spirit of the teaching of Jesus to the very different world we live in.

unless, of course, we all just wish to wear robes and sandals and drink wine all day - which is not a bad idea.

I don't actually drink wine. Never cared much for it. A rum and coke now and then, a vodka spritzer in the summer - but wine has never done much for me. Now, to the meat of your response.

So, you can't find those verses where Jesus challenges the Roman Empire. It's OK, because they don't exist. And it's not because at that time no one had the idea that they could challenge the Empire. Of course there were rebellions that broke out against Rome. There were people who opposed the Empire. But Jesus wasn't one of them apparently. Jesus might even have been a collaborator - probably was perceived as one by some people, which probably explains why the crowds turned away from him. Pay your taxes, if a soldier forces you to walk a mile - walk two, heal a centurion's servant, forgive the soldiers who crucify you. That sort of thing. It would be fascinating to put Jesus down in the middle of Nazi Germany to see how he would have handled things. Or in Canada today for that matter. Anyway ...

You're quite correct that there are a lot of things Jesus never spoke of. And no, I'm not suggesting that Jesus would endorse torture or anything else. Nor do I believe that all the German churches should have done in the 1930's was make sandwiches for the Jews. I would, mind you, point out that it's very easy for you, in 2018 in Canada, to pound away at your keyboard railing against the German Christians of the 1930's. Whether you would have been the brave and tough guy in Nazi Germany standing up for the Jews as the Gestapo closed in on you (or for that matter whether I would have been) who knows? I'm sure we both hope we would have been - but seriously - who knows? Maybe we'd have knuckled under too. We're 80 years and an ocean away from that environment, so we don't know. It's also easy in 2018 in Canada for you to pound away at your keyboard and attack the United States. Would you be so willing to do it elsewhere? If you were living in Moscow it would be riskier to attack Russia. If you were living in Beijing it would be even riskier to attack China. If you were living in Pyongyang? Well, risky probably doesn't do it justice. Who knows what you'd do. For all its faults (which you point out so regularly) New Brunswick is a pretty safe place to play keyboard warrior, I think. No matter what you write, it's not likely that the Irvings are going to send thugs to your door to drag you away in the middle of the night, after all. You can sleep easily.

I agree with you that the church has shamed itself many times in the last 2000 years by supporting what should have been unsupportable or endorsing what should have been obviously fought against. Too often, the church didn't do that. Too often, the church sold out, or knuckled under, or bought in, or just plain was too lazy and self-absorbed to do anything. The church deserves no credit for that. And, yes, we need to adapt the teachings of Jesus to the modern world. And I never said that the church should do nothing. I said that the church - especially as we go down to the level of the individual Christian - needs to do what it can. Should we protest against injustices and just plain evil acts? Yes, we should. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't provide sandwiches to the homeless as well. Or perhaps you think that German Christians in the 1930's should have made a big splash by protesting loudly against the Nazis and accomplishing nothing except being arrested, interned, shot, etc., rather than providing shelter (and food) to Jews - which many German Christians in the 1930's did.

And I repeat my question, which you deftly refused to answer. Maybe you thought I was being sarcastic - but I wasn't. You pound away at your keyboard writing your impressive little blog railing against all sorts of things. You spent all that time speaking at those synagogues impressing the Jewish congregants by talking about all those real issues that you think churches don't want to talk about. Good for you. What - precisely - have you actually changed by that? Whose life have you actually made just a little bit easier by that? To whom have you actually provided just a bit of material comfort to by doing that? I'm still willing to bet that Bette, for instance, has touched more people's lives in a real and practical and tangible way by providing sandwiches to homeless people than you have through all your blog entries and speaking gigs at synagogues combined.

And I'm not criticizing you for those things, although I do hope that you've also taken some time to serve some food to a few homeless people over the years - and I expect that you have. I've volunteered my time at homeless shelters and Out of the Cold Dinners, etc. I've pastored churches that have given away clothing (no charge) to anyone who needed it. These are very rewarding things to do and I hope you've experienced them. You do what you feel called to do, and I'm willing to bet that you do it very well. But I'm getting a little fed up with your constant harping about how everybody else is doing nothing while you change the world pounding away at that keyboard of yours. How's that working out for you?
 
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Screw the word ... common folk should be silent and passive so the powers can express free will about how nature ( a gift) can be conquered and exhausted ... then work of life will be done ... a magnificent satyr!

Is incarnate a power that appears as isn't ... pacifist at all costs ... thus the garden was blown ...

Golden Rule: be quiet about your brother's work ... we 're not his keeper right?

Tis a complex world for those wishing to simply listen to their isolated self ... has reper-cussions ... dark unseen for those without vision about how things look from great spans of perspective ... the other guise? What a cuss ... listening to all things ... inclusive in God's extensive domain ...

Difficult as Job bis times ...
 
I didn't avoid your question. I didn't claim I was a paragon of virtue. I didn't claim I had made a great impact on the world. (Though, mind you, writing a blog often critical of the Irvings is NOT a safe thing to do in this province. No, you don't get hit in the night. You get smear campaigns against you. You get staggering law suits...and I'm well aware of those risks because my readers frequently warn me about them. And I have some experience of violence. In Quebec, I was a board member and then chairman of Alliance Quebec, the anglo rights group. We had to face very dangerous mobs, the torching of our offices, the president had to go about in disguise and with an armed bodyguard, I had death threats... I had one by phone when I was living alone on a lake north of Montreal with no neighbours during the week. Coming home at night was always a little tense. And, no, we didn't accomplish anything. We lost. And the anglo community largely had to move out. But I don't have any apologies.

Incidentally, when our offices were torched, the only ones offering us office space - and doing so at great risk to themselves - was the Social Action group of the Anglo Roman Catholic Church in Montreal. (Christians whose idea of world service was making sandwiches were not of much help to us.)

Incidentally, I was fired from my weekly broadcasts at CBC. It was not because I ever attacked separatists on air. I was just doing little stories about Montreal. But the French wing of CBC (which routinely and very openly supported separatism) objected to me as as being too prominent in the anglo rights movement.

And, of course, it's not just the teaching of Jesus we should be looking at. It's the whole Bible. Thou shalt not kill seems a pretty clear statement. The U.S. has killed at least 20 million people since 1945, most of them, by far, civilians. It is now adding millions to that list with the deliberate starvation of civilians in Yemen. And there is strong evidence of a move to world nuclear war. Do you seriously suggest Christians should ignore this?

By the way, to suggest that German churches of the Hitler era rallied around Jews in any significant way by feeding them is absurd. The churches largely supported Hitler and the war - just as our churches are discreetly silent about the scale of U.S. mass murder, and the impoverishment of tens of millions in the U.S. while a small number of Americans pile up the greatest fortunes in history. (The wealthy and powerful of the Christian world are as happy to plunder Christians as they are people of any other faith.)

The Christians I admire are the ones like J.S. Woodsworth ( and, yes, he had faults) and Tommy Douglas who created medicare. They brought human needs to bear on our politicians. (unlike me, they didn't just scribble self-righteous blogs.) But most of our Christian churches have supported every war that Canada has fought, including wars that had nothing whatever to do with the defence of Canada (like the Northwest rebellion, the Boer War, Afghanistan, the bombing of Libya, the overthrow of elected government in Haiti ... And if that is consistent with the message of Jesus, then I shall happily skip the message of Jesus.

As to my Jewish audiences, it was striking how they applied the principles of their faith to world affairs. They were prominent in the nuclear disarmament movement ( but that failed - so we should really have spent all our time in making sandwiches.) Many, it's true, went overboard into a naive belief in Soviet communism. I knew quite a few of them. Far from being crazy trouble-makers, they were profoundly compassionate people. The revelation of what Stalin was really like came as a shock to them, and their offices emptied the day the learned the truth about Stalin.

(Incidentally, when I was conducting services at a very poor mission church in the red light district in Montreal and needed food at, say, Christmas, I learned early not to waste my time begging at the Christian stores, but to go to the Jewish ones. (And yes, I did work at a church with a congregation that lived in deep poverty, and really needed all the sandwiches and fruit we could give it.)

For two thousand years, Christians have committed mass murder, torture, plundered, abused, and impoverished and starved the whole world - even in the Christian countries. That is NOT was Jesus was about. And dealing with that is going to take more than making sandwiches.

And speaking at Christian churches? All they wanted was jokes.

Yes, I know that writing my blog will not change the world. I also know that 2,000 years of preaching and leadership by Christians has not changed it, either.
 
Sigh. Again, Graeme, it isn't an either/or when it comes to standing up on big issues vs feeding the poor and homeless. Many Christians do both.

As to the church, I'd concede that historically the church has been much better at the former vs the latter. There are a variety of reasons for that. "Christendom" (the church gaining and holding political and financial power) was a big part of it. I don't think it was healthy for the church to become rich and powerful; I don't think the church was meant to be rich and powerful. Riches and power too easily become idols, and the church has often fallen before them and decided to hang on to them rather than standing up against the rich and powerful when needed. I don't really deny your critique of the church. But to dismiss the actions of individual Christians who do things like providing meals to the homeless, etc. is uncalled for.

You didn't address, given the example of Jesus and the Roman Empire and the fact that there were rebellions against Rome (including in Judea) that Jesus could easily have joined (but didn't) what you think Jesus might have done in Nazi Germany. I think he'd have likely openly condemned the idolatry of Nazism and insisted that there was only one God and that it wasn't Hitler. Would he have led protest marches or reached out to those who were being persecuted by the Nazis (Jews, homosexuals, communists, gypsies)? I honestly suspect that he'd have done much more of the latter than the former, and - history repeats itself - he'd have been executed for it, not because he openly opposed the regime but because he helped all those people and insisted that serving God and serving country were two different things and in doing so he'd have become a rallying point for those opposed to the regime even if he himself wasn't a political revolutionary. Much like the Gospels portray him and his relationship to Rome.

Some professed Christians did well in Nazi Germany. Some did help Jews - and providing shelter and food for Jews in Nazi Germany was not a cowardly act. Most (I agree the large majority) did not. They fell. Some because they really were odious anti-semites who supported Hitler. Others (I'd guess the majority, but maybe that's wishful thinking on my part) because they were human and they were terrified of the consequences of standing up to Hitler, and it was just easier and safer to stay quiet.

I'm honest enough to admit that I'm 80 years removed from the experience and can't even begin to imagine what it would have been like to have lived in Nazi Germany. I wouldn't have been an odious anti-semite. I'd like to think that I would have tried to shelter and feed Jews, but I'm quite willing to admit that there's certainly a possibility that I'd have been too terrified of the consequences to do so. I can talk about what should have been done and what Christians should have done and what the church should have done. I can't be 100% confident that I'd have done it. None of us can since we weren't there.

So I may acknowledge the failure of Christianity and the church in Nazi Germany, but I won't condemn them.
 
Is it human to require to condemn something because of our follies?

Some can't see that implicit trait ... thus cryptic code goes on ... its best if you don't know is one variant! Shut it out ... make like ho qui ... Oui? Mais non ... some people just have to have something to reject ... however I read all and mumble about the elimination ... some despise mumbling and rumination ... tis there pothole ... opposed to everything and nothing ...
 
Graeme, I don't know what church(es) you are or have been associated with. From what you say they preach and teach they sound much like what I understood the UCC I attended in my childhood (1940s and 50s) did. But from the sixties on, I must have been very fortunate in the UCC I've attended because through them I've come to understand the mission of Jesus, the palm parade, the crucifixion, much like the pastor in the video you shared. Same sermon - no. Same ideas - yes.
Like otheers, at my church, I make sandwiches and help to feed the hungry. AAnd, while I don't go myself for reasons of my physical condition, I support those of my church in protest walks and gatherings; those who write letters, those who gather information and share it about mining, child labour, water, refugees, climate change, war, etc. - big issues that affect us all.
And I VOTE.

I get a little tired of you constantly criticizing the church, and lumping us all togetheer. Many of us are doing the best we can. Sometimes we could use a bit of recognition, a bit of encourageemnt, a bit of hope. You seem to dwell entirely on gloom and doom.
 
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