Rita is right. I grew up Southern Baptist and know the language. I've heard the obligatory "as are we all" more times than I can count. People who want to express bigoted ideas and still maintain a fig leaf of respectability use that. I've heard it referred to as a "dog whistle" in some instances. I can't imagine being fooled by it but I know the game.
Transgenderism ..... ask your questions!
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Rita is right. I grew up Southern Baptist and know the language. I've heard the obligatory "as are we all" more times than I can count. People who want to express bigoted ideas and still maintain a fig leaf of respectability use that. I've heard it referred to as a "dog whistle" in some instances. I can't imagine being fooled by it but I know the game.
The bard said "to thine own self be true". I think that's what Caitlyn Jenner is doing.
Would you rather I say, "She's broken, but we're not"? I don't think you would, and I wouldn't be speaking what I hold to be true.
Actually I think that would be more true. Every time in my life I've heard someone say that they were singling out someone different or other. I've never once heard someone use it referring to someone who strongly resemble themselves. In fact it is almost always used when the example is someone gay or transgendered. Why do we never hear that in reference to a cis-gendered straight male w.a.s.p. who doesn't remember the Sabbath day, or who covets, or who doesn't honor his father or mother? It would be true then that we're all sinners but for some reason no one feels the need to bring it up. It's a dog whistle.
It seems that here you are likening homosexuality and transgenderism to Sabbath-breaking, coveting, and dishonoring one's mother and father. I don't think that's what you meant to do. I know your feelings run otherwise, but that is how your comments here read to me.
When it comes to my own brokenness, I have awareness of it. While I won't share everything here, I will say that there have certainly been times when I have done other things on Sundays than worship (for example shopping, camping), coveted things given to others, and disrespected my parents.
It's my belief Jon, that not one of us is perfect, that all of us can fall into sin, and that we all need the encouragement, support, and forgiveness of one another.
I know what I have seen and heard my entire life. I know the context I have seen and heard it in. Those I grew up with who called it a sin (yes I know that's an unbiblical claim) never made such a big deal about any other sin beyond the obligatory "we all sin" comment. Yes, we all do, but the reaction is so different. I literally cannot recall anything else that has drawn that comment. Why do we hear such comments about Caitlyn Jenner, who is doing nothing wrong, and we don't hear it any time else? RitaTG was right with her comment a couple pages ago about the context we seem to always hear that in. I've heard it too.
BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
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I don't hear about preachers foaming at the mouth and talking about hate and death penalties about ANYTHING other than the sexual sin of the moment. Used to be 'gay sex', whatever that is; now it's transgendered people.
You hear people calling for death penalties for transgendered people Bette? Oh my. What preachers have you been listening to?!
BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
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Steve Anderson in the states. Gone viral on Youtube. And people wonder why I have problems sharing the word Christian.
He specifically states that Bruce [sic] Jenner is a reprobate, that he hates him with all his being, and that he hopes Godde will crush his [sic] heart (in order to cause death by theistic heart explosion, or some damned stupid thing). Give all people who like to use the label Christian about themselves a serious pause to reflect.
He specifically states that Bruce [sic] Jenner is a reprobate, that he hates him with all his being, and that he hopes Godde will crush his [sic] heart (in order to cause death by theistic heart explosion, or some damned stupid thing). Give all people who like to use the label Christian about themselves a serious pause to reflect.
Carolla
wondering & wandering
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It doesn't read that way to me jae. I see Jon giving an example of how the term is used in some circumstances, and not in others. Not comparing the circumstances, but the use of the term.
You could be correct on that Carolla. I know @Jon71 doesn't view homosexuality and transgenderism as sinful.
Yes, Carolla is right.
RitaTG
Well-Known Member
Ok ... then for Jae and everyone else watching this thread ..... so Jae doesn't feel alone....
Two direct questions please .... and I ask for your honest answer ...please.....
1. In your opinion is homosexuality a sin?
2. In your opinion is transgenderism a sin?
I would just like to have a very clear base understanding of everyone's position.
I will not reply in a negative way ..... I just would like to know.
Sincerely
Rita
Two direct questions please .... and I ask for your honest answer ...please.....
1. In your opinion is homosexuality a sin?
2. In your opinion is transgenderism a sin?
I would just like to have a very clear base understanding of everyone's position.
I will not reply in a negative way ..... I just would like to know.
Sincerely
Rita
Delightful Life
M&M, Cascadian Lovers
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1. the concept of 'sin' isn't part of my worldview
2. the concept of 'sin' isn't part of my worldview
3. whatever people want to call themselves and self-identify as is copacetic with me :3
2. the concept of 'sin' isn't part of my worldview
3. whatever people want to call themselves and self-identify as is copacetic with me :3
Thank you for your questions RitaTG. Before I answer, there are a couple of thoughts that I need to express.
First, I trust your word RitaTG that you will not reply on a negative way. I can only hope that others will follow your lead in doing same.
Second, my words come from a man who is a sinner. I was born with my will enslaved to sin, and from that state have done many things for which I should be condemned. Thankfully, God gives me His grace.
That being said, here are my answers to your questions...
1. Being a homosexual (having a homosexual orientation) is not a sin. Choosing to engage in same-sex relations is sinful.
2. I honestly have no set position on whether or not transgenderism is a sin. I lean towards saying that it is not.
revsdd
Well-Known Member
I'm not a biblical literalist. Neither, of course, was Jesus. That's one of the things that got him in trouble with the Pharisees. Jesus saw past the strict letter of the law, so to speak, and saw the spirit of the law as what mattered. I think we are always called to discern the spirit rather than simply to read the letter.
If taken literally, one would have to say that homosexual activity is sinful - and, from a literalistic point of view, one would say that homosexual orientation is not. But from a more spritual point of view, one has to ask "why" certain prohibitions were put in place in the Old Testament. The forbidden meats, for example, tended to be those that spoiled quickly. The prohibitions were likely a public health matter more than anything. In terms of sex, you see many examples of child-bearing (a heterosexual activity) being held up as an ideal. Why? I suspect for pragmatic reasons. Israel was a small country surrounded by enemies. Israel needed children. Especially boys to raise an army. Homosexuality would be non-procreative and therefore was condemned as against the national interest.
In the New Testament, I think that Paul's concern was not so much homosexuality as it was adultery or fornication. He saw sex as something that should take place within marriage. Obviously there was no same sex marriage in those days, therefore homosexuality was illicit sexual activity. Women, for example, exchanging natural relations for unnatural relations means turning away from sexual activity within marriage to a form of sexual activity that could only happen outside marriage. What would Paul write in our present context, where same sex marriage is allowed? I suspect he'd argue for faithfulness within those marriages.
So, short answer to your question - no.
RitaTG said:
Transgenderism has more to do with identity than with sex as I understand it. Again, I'd say no. There's even less biblical content about this than there is about homosexuality, of course.
revjohn
Well-Known Member
RitaTG said:
Only most recent translations include the word homosexuality and there is significant debate about whether that captures the essence of the message being conveyed or a translator bias. Considering that earlier translations use the word sodomy or sodomite there is a possibility that what is being condemned is more anal rape than what we have come to define homosexuality. Bear in mind the biblical penalty for raping a virgin is marriage it is probably easy to understand how biblical literalism equates the act of a male raping a female with marriage and a male raping a male with homosexuality.
That said I do not believe that the Bible foresaw such relationships. The overarching point to sexual intercourse is "be fruitful and multiply." Is that a repetitive command or could it be that fruitfulness is not the same as multiplying?
Paul in Galatians talks about fruits of the Spirit. Nowhere is bearing children treated in that particular context. We also know that while Paul did have a lot to say about what he considered normative we, for the most part reject that Paul preferred for nobody to get married. Marriage, according to Paul, was for those who were weak of spirit and lusted in their flesh.
It is also Paul who said everything is permitted but not everything is beneficial. Something most Christians also appear to dismiss out of hand. Especially those who can't help but point at something and proclaim it to be sin. Just don't point out that they eat pork unless you have the time to listen to a hypocrite self-justify dismissing out of hand clearly identified sin.
And, while we are at it Paul also had something to say about those weak in their faith and those who are strong in their faith and how the should operate. Essentially if you believe something is sinful you shouldn't do it and if you don't believe something is sinful you can engage in that something without condemning yourself. Community exists to draw boundaries and those boundaries are both rigid and flexible at different times for different reasons.
You have heard it said, "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." But I tell you "do not resist an evil person but whoever slaps you on the right cheek turn to him the other also."
Clearly what was once written is capable of being superseded. If the scriptures can be tweaked like that by Jesus does that mean the Word of God trumps God's word?
I do not look at homosexuality as being inherently sinful. I believe that homosexuals experience the same kind of drives and frustrations as heterosexuals. Why one is permitted relief when they burn with lust and the other is prohibited from relief when similarly burning with lust strikes me as an inconsistency. If marriage exists to relieve lustful burning then it should be a relief for all and loving faithfulness should be expected from all couples.
RitaTG said:
I'm pretty confident that the Bible didn't see this coming. Otherwise we probably would not have heard Paul saying, "In Christ there is no male or female" and thought to undertake a worldview which narrowly defines male and female and definitely assigns gender based on genetalia alone.
How do I know you're fit to teach folk about God? Why you have a penis don't you?
Fortunately most denominations have additions requirements than that.
I think Transgenderism pushes a lot of buttons because for many, the easiest pigeonhole it falls into is abomination and that is more a fear issue than it is a faith issue. Unless the faith is in the notion that being born with a penis makes you definitely male and being born without one makes you definitely female.
I find it interesting that we would listen to God tell the prophet Samuel that humanity looks at outward appearances but God looks at the heart and we would continue to obsess over appearances while ignoring the heart. As if male hearts also have penises.
So, I would not identify Transgenderism as sin. I would expect the same loving faithfulness from a transgendered couple as I would from a heterosexual or homosexual couple.
And where any definitely sin (violation of the marriage covenant) I would hope to see both repentance and forgiveness modelled.
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