Strip Clubs

[revsdd]

Okay, then @chansen let's look at relevant laws already in place using the links I already posted as a starting place to debate the justness/ unjustness of strip club employment practice. Because it is already established by law and strip clubs are already legal. That's not a personal opinion, it's a fact. As it is, they may not be following employment laws which are human rights, and I'd like to debate that using the laws themselves. They differ only slightly by province, so let's look at Ontario since you live there.

http://maytree.com/blog/2012/07/human-rights-in-the-ontario-workplace-what-you-need-to-know/

http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/policy-and-guidelines-disability-and-duty-accommodate

One question I would have is the nature of the relationship between the exotic dancer and the strip club. Is the exotic dancer an employee of the strip club, like the manager or bartender, or is the exotic dancer a free lancer or performer, similar to the relationship of a comedian to a comedy club? Put bluntly, how applicable is employment law to strippers?

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

This case seems relevant.

It speaks to "age" in the requirement for an exotic dancer.and the rights of the employer to name "youth" as a job requirement.
http://blog.firstreference.com/is-the-appearance-of-youth-a-bona-fide-occupational-qualification/

Actually the application was abandoned before it went to tribunal. If she had backed up her claim that they "were going in a different direction with younger girls" she would not be allowed to be discriminated on based on the "physical appearance of youth" for which there is no objective test. If she could get evidence of their ages (like that job posting from Boston I posted) or other co-workers, both new hires and dismissed staff, to give statements about their ages she might have won.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

One question I would have is the nature of the relationship between the exotic dancer and the strip club. Is the exotic dancer an employee of the strip club, like the manager or bartender, or is the exotic dancer a free lancer or performer, similar to the relationship of a comedian to a comedy club? Put bluntly, how applicable is employment law to strippers?

Human rights in employment as far as duty to accommodate, still applies to "contract employees" working at a workplace. It says so in one of the links.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

One question I would have is the nature of the relationship between the exotic dancer and the strip club. Is the exotic dancer an employee of the strip club, like the manager or bartender, or is the exotic dancer a free lancer or performer, similar to the relationship of a comedian to a comedy club? Put bluntly, how applicable is employment law to strippers?

Put bluntly...why shouldn't it be applicable to all workers?

 

[Jaebius]

Strip clubs ought to have Open Stage nights - similar to comedy clubs' Open Mike nights. That'd give all of us an opportunity to go strip in front of a live audience.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

This case seems relevant.

It speaks to "age" in the requirement for an exotic dancer.and the rights of the employer to name "youth" as a job requirement.
http://blog.firstreference.com/is-the-appearance-of-youth-a-bona-fide-occupational-qualification/

Can I ask why you don't think people who are not currently considered conventionally attractive - due to disability, weight variation, etc. - by the mainstream, shouldn't be strippers?

 

[revsdd]

Put bluntly...why shouldn't it be applicable to all workers?

I'm not saying it shouldn't. I'm asking if it is. I honestly don't know what the legal "relationship" of stripper to strip club is. A few years ago my wife and I went to an Elton John concert at Copps Coliseum in Hamilton. Was Elton John an employee of Copps Coliseum and therefore covered by employment law? I honestly don't know, and that strikes me as the same kind of relationship. Is a contract employee the same as a performer? Again, I honestly don't know.

 

[Pinga]

They can be strippers, if they can meet the requirement of the job, which is to sexually excite/please the customers, x/times per shift. Remember, the act of inclusion does not mean that anyone can do any job. If it was, then you could recommend that sumone living with down's syndrome could do my job. They couldn't. It does mean that someone living with phsyical impairment could do it, with reasonable accomodation.
It comes down to the actual job's functios and requirements. You may find that some people with disability which blocks some work is actually quite acceptable at a club.

 

[Pinga]

I'm not saying it shouldn't. I'm asking if it is. I honestly don't know what the legal "relationship" of stripper to strip club is. A few years ago my wife and I went to an Elton John concert at Copps Coliseum in Hamilton. Was Elton John an employee of Copps Coliseum and therefore covered by employment law? I honestly don't know, and that strikes me as the same kind of relationship. Is a contract employee the same as a performer? Again, I honestly don't know.

RevSD, you raise a good point. In many places, from what I can read, they are independent contractors in a club. They are not employees, or contracted workers. Makes significant difference, as it becomes a purchase of service or rental for the club owner and shifts what laws apply.

Note: this is similair to what is done in corporations globally to purchase service, for such things as IT, thereby bypassing employee law.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

They can be strippers, if they can meet the requirement of the job, which is to sexually excite/please the customers, x/times per shift. Remember, the act of inclusion does not mean that anyone can do any job. If it was, then you could recommend that sumone living with down's syndrome could do my job. They couldn't. It does mean that someone living with phsyical impairment could do it, with reasonable accomodation.
It comes down to the actual job's functios and requirements. You may find that some people with disability which blocks some work is actually quite acceptable at a club.

And what would the "bonafide" objective test of that be. Lol. Me thinks there isn't one that could be applied in court.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

RevSD, you raise a good point. In many places, from what I can read, they are independent contractors in a club. They are not employees, or contracted workers. Makes significant difference, as it becomes a purchase of service or rental for the club owner and shifts what laws apply.

Note: this is similair to what is done in corporations globally to purchase service, for such things as IT, thereby bypassing employee law.

If they can legally bypass employment law they've found a loophole so they can be shady and discriminatory to make money over and above abiding by human rights. However, with disability employment and other discrimination law in Canada, I think you're wrong. Otherwise, the person who initially filed the case you posted would not be able to do so.

 

[Pinga]

It depends on the club.

Note: Hiring outisde companies as compared to hiring employees does not mean shady companies, it is just a different way of doing work.

If I were to spend time on this item, I would be spending it to ensure workplace laws are applied, rather than stigmatizing the workers and saying their work was inappropriate or unskilled..

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Yes, it's a different way of doing business - but if they try to use it to get around human rights laws, it's shady.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

If they hire from a stripper agency the stripper agency has to abide by the laws. And if the employer requests an employee that fits the bina fide (validity testable in court) requirements for the job and let's say they send someone with a disability for an interview. If the person hiring discriminates the agency is responsible for addressing it. If it isn't resolved - someone is responsible, in Canada as the "employer" for addressing it - a claim can be filed. The reason why they aren't filed often is because the process is so long people feel intimidated and often give up or get other jobs and drop their claims.

 

[Pinga]

A business owner does not have the same restrictions as an employee on their own time.
For example, if I won my own business, there is no minimum wage. If I own my own business, there is no limit on the amount of hours that I work.
That doesn't mean it is shady. I have good friends who love being independent / freelancers. A writer has no guarantee of wages for what they write, if not deemed to be something worthy of being published. An IT consultant may not be in need, or may be in huge need. It doesn't mean that they are attempts to get around employment law. They are different.

 

[Pinga]

If they hire from a stripper agency the stripper agency has to abide by the laws. And if the employer requests an employee that fits the bina fide (validity testable in court) requirements for the job and let's say they send someone with a disability for an interview. If the person hiring discriminates the agency is responsible for addressing it. If it isn't resolved - a claim can be filed. The reason why they aren't filed often is because the process is so long people feel intimidated and often give up or get other jobs and drop their claims.

It would be an interestng case, no doubt,

 

[Delightful Life]

Most women's shoes are ridiculous.

most women are quite ridiculous

and most men too

(and most transsexuals)

most of humanity is ridiculous

blessedly so :3

(whilst me dad n i were sauntering through a forested village today it wasn't mapping out to my faulty memory so time goes on, we're more tired and in need of powder rooming so i suggest that we ask at a local eatery and get a 'don't be a girl' thing from my dad...i was too tired to react to that...but the day was full of surreality -- like seeing the 'have you seen my drone' flyer on the telephone pole...the future is here...look busy, citizens...excuse the derail good folks...)

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

It would be an interestng case, no doubt,

It would be. It would open up all kinds of questions - like inclusion being about inherent dignity of persons with disabilities, or whether exploiting a marginalized group vs. providing equal employment opportunity or inclusion as valued members of society (like, let's say, sexual beings like everybody else and whether the attitudes of the workplace culture discriminates - either by intent or by effect.) And if they are deemed to be exploiting the inherent human dignity of persons with disabilities, then, to be fair, why not consider if those jobs exploit the same dignity of all persons? It would be interesting and would address some inequality whether you are for or against hiring people with disabilities as strippers.

It could also bring to light why strip clubs use outside agencies.

 

[Pinga]

Well, could you be a stripper and wear your burqa? No, clearly it is a distraction from the sexual nature of the role, hiding the body, and full nudity is often a requirement of employment/contract/service.

If you are unable to perform rhythmically to dance, you would also not be meeting the basic needs.....but maybe you could pitch it? Who knows. Do blind customers get to touch when they can't see? Might be a lot of people showing up with white canes...

I'm trying to figure out what disability due you feel would exclude because of culture, that should not?

A lot depends on the individuals own sense of self, their marketing of their own sexuality, as well as their ability to meet all the other needs, including financial transactions, acting, and so on. If someone isn't appealing, they will not make money and the harassment will likely be pretty bad. I'm thinking they would quit pretty quickly.

I would anticipate that the bias against people with disability is the same in all places of work, and the challenges around what is undue hardship and what is reasonable accommodation is going to be in front of the courts for a while.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Well, could you be a stripper and wear your burqa? No, clearly it is a distraction from the sexual nature of the role, hiding the body, and full nudity is often a requirement of employment/contract/service.

If you are unable to perform rhythmically to dance, you would also not be meeting the basic needs.....but maybe you could pitch it? Who knows. Do blind customers get to touch when they can't see? Might be a lot of people showing up with white canes...

I'm trying to figure out what disability due you feel would exclude because of culture, that should not?

A lot depends on the individuals own sense of self, their marketing of their own sexuality, as well as their ability to meet all the other needs, including financial transactions, acting, and so on. If someone isn't appealing, they will not make money and the harassment will likely be pretty bad. I'm thinking they would quit pretty quickly.

I would anticipate that the bias against people with disability is the same in all places of work, and the challenges around what is undue hardship and what is reasonable accommodation is going to be in front of the courts for a while.

The straight answer to your question is consider whether Paralympians are legitimate athletes or whether dancers in wheelchairs are indeed dancers.


Your examples, I.e. should blind customers be able to touch instead (normally off limits and is harassment/ assault)? Are all reasons why inclusion of people with disabilities makes me consider all 'round, on the employment side and on the consumer side, whether or not strip clubs could possibly be just under human rights laws at all. They are rife with contradictions, from employment, to the provision of services, to workplace harassment. I don't know how taking ones clothes of as a bona fide requirement of the job would stand up against harassment laws, either. And if it did, would the court consider "exciting men or turning folks on" to be legitimate when compared to harassment laws, or if it could even be legitimized in court by any objective measure at all.

However, hiring people with disabilities would be an interesting step to address women's equality, male biases prevelant in the industry, and changing body image acceptance/ ideals and attitudes towards women in the rest of society. Tough call.