Strip Clubs

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

@Pinga A person with a disability who wasn't considered appealing by patrons of a strip club would get harassed - that's not okay but they would - and maybe if they were brave enough they wouldn't quit but they would use it to address sexism and discrimination and the discrepancy between consciousness raising about sexuality and who is a sexual being - and who is left out by the sex industry that perpetuates the images in popular media which drives stereotypes in the first place. It would expose more than her body to the clientele - it would expose some important paradoxes and contradictions we live with like human rights vs economic interests of the sex industry and human rights vs sexual desires.

You argued in a past discussion, that people with disabilities should be able to receive services because they are sexual beings with sexual needs, but you won't apply the same criteria to the providers of the service of exotic dancing because you are protecting the desire of the consumer over the right of the worker to have their inherent human dignity protected . Inclusuon goes both ways. Why is it okay for the customers to harass her and the employer be okay with it, so she would feel the need to quit?

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

The threshold of the duty to accommodate is very high and would need to stand up in court. And bona fide job requirements, pardon the pun, need to stand up in court to an objective testable measure. Interesting case indeed. Maybe nobody's tried it yet.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

@revsdd and @Pinga here's a link about a class action suit involving strip clubs using contract workers, and other breaches, in the states. They were deemed to be using it as a labor standards loophole - in this case to pay lower wages.

http://www.hjpmcivillaw.com/_blog/Civil_Law_Blog/post/strip-club-faces-class-action-lawsuit/

And here's one about whether or not they might be protected as employees even if independent contractors:

http://lawofwork.ca/?p=1306

 

[Pinga]

Paralympians are athletes; however, they don't generally compete with able bodied athletes. How is this relevant?

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Paralympians are athletes; however, they don't generally compete with able bodied athletes. How is this relevant?

It's relevant to inclusion which is a cornerstone of human rights regarding all areas of human rights and disability, including employment law, law that came out of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons With Disabilities.

The Olympics and Paralympics are another place where this has been challenged by the same UN Convention - those games were established prior to the UN Convention but I don't know what countries' laws apply because they are international games. Ideally, the whole world become signatories and would apply every aspect of them.

Oscar Pastorious is an example of an athlete with a disability (prosthetic legs) who competed with able bodied athletes that set a precident that started a conversation about what qualifies someone for which event, be it Paralympic or Olympic. Unfortunately, he was found guilty of killing his girlfriend...so in the public eye he lost the respect that he gained from his accomplishment. However, he did compete with able bodied athletes and there was even controversy that his prosthetic legs might have even given him an edge over the other runners. In a workplace there is also a possibility that an assistive device required might even make a person with a disability more efficient as an unintended benefit. (aside - have you ever seen how fast those motorized scooters get around? I think I wouldn't mind one of those someday. )

I posted a link to a dance involving people in wheelchairs dancing with able bodied ballet dancers.

In employment law regarding the inclusion of people with disabilities:

http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/policy-and-guidelines-disability-and-duty-accommodate (see 3/4 down the page)

"Accommodation with dignity is part of the broader principle that our society should be structured and designed for inclusiveness.

This principle, which is sometimes referred to as integration, emphasizes barrier free design and equal participation of persons with varying levels of ability. Integration is also much more cost-effective than building parallel service systems, although it is inevidable that there will be times when parallel services are the only option."

But employer has to meet the test of undue hardship before it can be determined . And the threshold is high - even if it is expensive. They can't just automatically say, no we can't do that because it doesn't meet x arbitrary requirement most convenient for our business. The onus would be on the employer to prove it couldn't be done before any parallel services would even need to be considered.

 

[Jaebius]

They can be strippers, if they can meet the requirement of the job, which is to sexually excite/please the customers, x/times per shift. Remember, the act of inclusion does not mean that anyone can do any job. If it was, then you could recommend that sumone living with down's syndrome could do my job. They couldn't. It does mean that someone living with phsyical impairment could do it, with reasonable accomodation.
It comes down to the actual job's functios and requirements. You may find that some people with disability which blocks some work is actually quite acceptable at a club.

(Here we could go into a discussion regarding sexual excitement. Is it really possible for person A to sexually excite person B? I feel the answer is no. Rather - person B can sexually excite person B through the thoughts they choose to think regarding what person A is doing.)

 

[Pinga]

What i said was, she would need to be able to do her job. If your job is to be sexually attractive along with other items, you would quit if you couldn't do it, as you would if you were a crappy waiter.

You seem to presume someone who is disabled cannot fulfill the job?

 

[Pinga]

(Here we could go into a discussion regarding sexual excitement. Is it really possible for person A to sexually excite person B? I feel the answer is no. Rather - person B can sexually excite person B through the thoughts they choose to think regarding what person A is doing.)

Umm, lap dances are physical interactions, not just watching

 

[Pinga]

Kimmio, i am not sure why you feel the need to explain that. You will note that I said generally specifically for the reasons you mentioned. Sledge hockey is a quite different sport than standard hockey. It is the same with gender based sports

 

[Jaebius]

Umm, lap dances are physical interactions, not just watching

(Even so - I feel it is a case of person B exciting person B. If person A is not someone person B chooses to delight in - no excitement will be had.)

 

[BetteTheRed]

Not true, Jae. Sexual excitement is not a choice, but an involuntary reaction, measurable by blood flow.

 

[revjohn]

(Even so - I feel it is a case of person B exciting person B. If person A is not someone person B chooses to delight in - no excitement will be had.)

Well, that works as opinion.

Without wanting to get far too personal somebody's pheromones in your nose can trigger your brain in ways that observation and affections can't.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

What i said was, she would need to be able to do her job. If your job is to be sexually attractive along with other items, you would quit if you couldn't do it, as you would if you were a crappy waiter.

You seem to presume someone who is disabled cannot fulfill the job?

No, actually. I think they wouldn't be hired to do the job. I think they would be up against stereotypes and barriers that need to be broken. And I think the problem holding back change is the business itself.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

@BetteTheRed , @revjohn That's also opinion. I am not sure that would - eh-hem - "stand up" in court. Look at the industries that make money on Viagra, and for vaginal lube. Not always because one isn't "turned on" - it is because one's brain and one's equipment maybe doesn't work the same at 20 as at 60. It can be measurable by other things, rather than pure animal behaviour. Not saying there's no place for sexual instinct- of course - but other things override pure animal instinct in humans. Also, I'm sure you'd agree that neither pheromones or blood flow to the sex organs are excuses for no self control, or for ignorance towards someone's human rights.

 

[Jaebius]

(My point is this - the strippers should not be held responsible for whether or not the strip club guests get turned on. That shouldn't be in the job description. It shouldn't be a factor in whether someone gets to keep their job or not. It's simply out of their control. What employment - if its to exist - can be based on is the ability to dance in a certain way.)

 

[BetteTheRed]

There's got to be some objective measurement, however, Jae. If a stripper was so absolutely desire-killing that the customers left in droves, surely the management can do something.

People self-select out of occupations all the time. It was not in my destiny to be a cocktail waitress, for instance. I tried it and it was hilariously unsuccessful.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Yeah, but they don't all have dance skills anyway. If the stripper is naked and hangin around on the pole that's good enough for a lot of places - as was mentioned by others. She's an object to be leered at. What she has to be in the hirer's mind is a certain type of object.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

There's got to be some objective measurement, however, Jae. If a stripper was so absolutely desire-killing that the customers left in droves, surely the management can do something.

People self-select out of occupations all the time. It was not in my destiny to be a cocktail waitress, for instance. I tried it and it was hilariously unsuccessful.

What if people who pour energy and money into making themselves look like sex objects with augmented ripped muscles, fake body parts, and pandered to humans' lowermonkey brains were desire killing in people with the intellectual ability to see past it?

What would happen is a more fair and compassionate society is what I think.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Part of my reason for being so adamant about this discussion is because I don't understand where strip clubs have a place in well researched and established human rights laws (don't think they do) and in the minds of human rights minded people. Like, do pheromones and base animal instinct need to override the principles of inclusion in a socially evolved society? What is the purpose of human rights if we just let our monkey brains take over anyway?

The reason human rights for persons with disabilities is a good tool to measure it against is because there has been so much work done on the UN Convention in recent years - and disability covers such a wide spectrum of things that people who experience ageism (babyboomers will find it increasingly helpful as the natural effects of aging show up) and sexism and racism also benefit when all it's main principle of inclusion is considered - so it is often used in human rights considerations as the 'lens' by which to view all inclusion.

 

[ChemGal]

@Kimmio what do you mean by monkey brains? You also make it sound as though all strippers have fake body parts. I think strippers are more diverse than you seem to think.