Revisiting Mark

[paradox3]

Thanks for your comments @unsafe. Indirectly, you are taking me to another question I sometimes think about.

Is faith a call or gift from God? Or is it a decision we make?

But here is the thing ---Thomas doubted until he saw and touched only then did he believe -----his doubt didn't bring him to the believing --the seeing and touching brought the belief ------not the doubt -----

Wouldn't you say that the doubt led to the questioning which led to the seeing and touching? Or not?

 

[Mendalla]

Wouldn't you say that the doubt led to the questioning which led to the seeing and touching? Or not?

Which is how I read it. Thomas seems to had a classic empirical approach. He looked for evidence and seeing was not enough, so he did an experiment, he insisted on gathering more evidence. And it led him to a stronger faith. And that would not have happened had he just taken things on authority. He may not have doubted everything, but he did doubt that Jesus was standing before him because it didn't make sense. So he sought more evidence. In the discussion mentioned over in lectionary, I suggested that makes him the smartest, and if not that, the most "modern" of the Apostles.

 

[unsafe]

Mendalla said:
Doubt could be the Spirit moving us towards or away from something.

MY opinion here ---I totally disagree with this Statement ----

Doubt never comes from God ------Jesus says how many time ---why do you doubt ---don't doubt ----there is not one scripture that says it is good to doubt and that doubt brings us to belief ----

I say----- it may be ok to doubt and say doubt is OK and is good in this physical world ----but it is definitely not good in God's Spiritual realm or with believing in His word -----Doubt in Scripture is a Faith blocker ---an answered prayer blocker and a belief blocker ----

 

[Mendalla]

I think you are misunderstanding what I mean by doubt @unsafe. You seem to immediately assume that doubt = "doubting God" or "doubting Jesus" and that is not what I am talking about. I am assuming belief in God and Jesus here. I am saying that we start from the point of view that there is no doubt of those.

I am talking "doubt" in a very generic, dictionary defintion sense. One could be a faithful Christian and still doubt what you have been taught about a given passage or tenet of the faith. Doubt works both ways. It may lead us to question correct ideas, but it is also what makes us question, and correct, incorrect ideas. So maybe if we doubt a teaching or tenet, maybe it is an incorrect teaching or tenet and our doubting and seeking to further understand it is the Holy Spirit's subtle way of nudging us "back on the path".

The fact is, doubt about matters such as these is what frees us from authoritarian views of religion and scripture and lets us find our way to God. It is what led people like Luther to question Catholic doctrine and trigger the Reformation. Luther never doubted his belief in God or in Jesus as God's Son and the Saviour of humankind. But he did doubt what he was being taught by the church.

 

[unsafe]

paradox3 ----you said ----Wouldn't you say that the doubt led to the questioning which led to the seeing and touching? Or not?

No ---Jesus was the one who told Thomas to come and touch Him and look at His wounds ---Jesus said --blessed are the ones who don't need to see to believe -----

 

[unsafe]

paradox3 ----you said ----Is faith a call or gift from God? Or is it a decision we make?


All Faith is a gift from God ----but Human faith is not the same as the Faith that comes from hearing the Scriptures --

Human Faith relies on our 5 senses --it is an intellectual faith for this physical world ----you believe in what you see ---feel-- hear taste and touch

Bible Faith Relies on the unseen and allows us to believe what God says in His word is truth and the promises He has made will come to pass -----

 

[paradox3]

Jesus was the one who told Thomas to come and touch Him and look at His wounds

Yes, this is true. But 8 days earlier, Thomas had said, "Unless I see the wounds from the nails in his hands, and put my fingers into the wounds from the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will never believe it!"

My understanding of the story is that Jesus would have known about this, leading him to invite Thomas to touch and see his wounds.

Jesus said --blessed are the ones who don't need to see to believe -----

Yes, a beautiful line of scripture. The NET renders it,

John 20:29 New English Translation (NET Bible)
29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are the people who have not seen and yet have believed.”

 

[Redbaron]

Doubt as far as Faith goes is wavering Faith -----true Faith never wavers ---true Faith is steadfast ------

But faith may be unwavering, even as belief might waver.
Doubt is like the burr in the saddle that keeps us seeking the truth, that won't let us just believe anything because someone said so. It keeps us seeking until we might find. Doubt isn't always a bad thing.

There is a world of difference between being faithful and being gullible.

 

[unsafe]

Mendalla -----you said -----that doubt is the Holy Spirit trying to get you back on the path

My View ----not in your lifetime ----The Holy Spirit will never use doubt to get a believer back on track ---

Why because Satan is the cause of doubt in God's world -------and the Holy Spirit will never side with Satan's tactics ---

Satan got Eve to Question God's words in the Garden ---Satan said to Eve ---surely you won't die -----then Eve Doubted God's word ---and look what happened -----Doubt will never come From God ----My View

If your in doubt your not in Faith -----

James 1:6-8 (NIV)
6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.

 

[unsafe]

Redbaron ---you said ----But faith may be unwavering, even as belief might waver.

I say ----Faith is belief ---so if belief is wavering that says your Faith is wavering -----as the 2 are one in God's world

Greek word for Faith
pistis: faith, faithfulness
Usage: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

 

[Redbaron]

No they aren't.

I know there are some people who, without the shadow of a doubt belief the earth is flat, and the sky is a solid dome, because the "Bible says so!" No matter how firmly they believe, and how loudly they proclaim it, the earth is NOT flat, the sky NOT solid. Period. Maybe a little doubt and questioning might help them to be disabused of that falsehood, and start believing the facts as they are.

The faither who said 'Help my unbelief!' was asking for help to have faith, not to believe a certain set of facts. The two are different.

 

[Mendalla]

Moving on in Mark 9, because I see this drifting off into one of those topics we know will never be settled.

38 John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone[j] casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not stop him; for no one who does a deed of power in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. 40 Whoever is not against us is for us. 41 For truly I tell you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ will by no means lose the reward.

What are thoughts on this passage? John complains that someone is acting in Jesus' name who isn't part of the group and Jesus seems okay with it. The man is invoking his name to do good so let him.

In the ancient world, invoking a god or goddess or other figure of power to accomplish "magic" was a common practice so I see what the man was doing.

The oft-quoted line here is, of course, "Whoever is not against us is for us." Jesus essentially says that unless someone is clearly an enemy (e.g. scribes and Pharisees), they treated as being "for us".

 

[paradox3]

faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

This list of words is not necessarily interchangeable.

We could add loyalty, steadfastness, surety, certainty . . .
Now we have a list of 10 words with subtly different meanings. There is also a degree of overlap among some of them.

 

[paradox3]

What are thoughts on this passage? John complains that someone is acting in Jesus' name who isn't part of the group and Jesus seems okay with it. The man is invoking his name to do good so let him.

John seems to be holding on tightly to the disciples' personal relationship with Jesus - - not wanting to share the Master with others. Is this because he is starting to understand what Jesus has been saying about His death and resurrection?

 

[Redbaron]

Moving on in Mark 9, because I see this drifting off into one of those topics we know will never be settled.



What are thoughts on this passage? John complains that someone is acting in Jesus' name who isn't part of the group and Jesus seems okay with it. The man is invoking his name to do good so let him.

In the ancient world, invoking a god or goddess or other figure of power to accomplish "magic" was a common practice so I see what the man was doing.

The oft-quoted line here is, of course, "Whoever is not against us is for us." Jesus essentially says that unless someone is clearly an enemy (e.g. scribes and Pharisees), they treated as being "for us".

It does seem that the lines between 'SWe' and 'They' are not so firmly etched in Jesus's mind, as in the mind of some of the disciples. The disciples seem to want clear demarcations between 'our group' and 'everyone else'; Jesus seems to be a bit more flexible on the matter.
Maybe the love and grace of God extend beyond the limits that some people would place on them?

 

[paradox3]

This discussion with Jesus about "insiders and outsiders" comes right after the disciples have been arguing about who is the greatest in the group. They are silent when Jesus asks them what they were talking about, seemingly knowing he would not be pleased with such a conversation.

Jesus replies, "If anyone wants to be first, he must be last of all and the servant of all."

 

[Lastpointe]

Could that be jealousy on the part of John. The us versus them. It Jesus doesn’t see a them, just a whole bunch of “us”

 

[Mendalla]

Could that be jealousy on the part of John. The us versus them. It Jesus doesn’t see a them, just a whole bunch of “us”

And, yet, earlier it was Jesus creating an "inner circle" atmosphere by choosing to explain more to the twelve and sending them out to do healing and casting out spirits themselves. So can we blame them when they see an "outsider" exercising authority that they thought had been given to them?

 

[paradox3]

In Luke's gospel, seventy-two others are sent out in pairs to heal the sick and preach about the kingdom of God.

But is a story unique to Luke.

 

[Mendalla]

I was thinking of this passage.

7 He called the twelve and began to send them out two by two, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits. 8 He ordered them to take nothing for their journey except a staff; no bread, no bag, no money in their belts; 9 but to wear sandals and not to put on two tunics. 10 He said to them, “Wherever you enter a house, stay there until you leave the place. 11 If any place will not welcome you and they refuse to hear you, as you leave, shake off the dust that is on your feet as a testimony against them.” 12 So they went out and proclaimed that all should repent. 13 They cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many who were sick and cured them.

The Luke version actually seems to make more sense. You can do a lot more with 72 than 12.