How was church today?

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Keeping on my quest for something that speaks to my heart, the past Sunday I visited an Evangelical Anglican parish.
Liked the contemporary, vibrant music, the high energy, and the deep faith that could be felt in the air; also liked the sermon, short and sweet. They had two "testimonials", though, that I didn't like at all - the theology expressed by both parishioners was one of "we the saints, they the sinners", and a sacred vs. profane world view that was actually fought against by the Reformers. The musicians' "sermonettes" between the songs and the "spontaneous" prayers filled with "Lord we just..." also got me very irritated. I value lay people participation in the liturgy, but I don't think you can go there and speak any emotional BS that's going through your mind.
 
I haven't found much 'contemporary, vibrant music' that isn't theologically pretty backwards, I'm afraid. I almost always feel almost assailed with "father, lord, king, he, him, his"...

And emotional is a delicate balance; I speak of crying during a service. It is a totally personal reaction, I think, not a collective hysteria.
 
BetteTheRed said:
I haven't found much 'contemporary, vibrant music' that isn't theologically pretty backwards, I'm afraid. I almost always feel almost assailed with "father, lord, king, he, him, his"...

And emotional is a delicate balance; I speak of crying during a service. It is a totally personal reaction, I think, not a collective hysteria.
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It’s not all backwards. But our church’s music, that I like, is also getting repetitive sometimes (at least I’ve almost memorized all the words and don’t have to follow what’s on the screen from a distance...but I still sometimes need to read the words)...because maybe there’s not enough repertoire available yet... I don’t know.i still like it. That’s not going to stop me from going. Most of the members are moving away from some of the annoying behaviour @Giancarlo describes. Though, I’ve prayed with my home group and felt awkward for the same reason. When we’ve gone around in a circle and everybody has prayed about something we just discussed that they requested we pray about. To me, bringing it up as something we’d like to pray about...the prayer has been spoken and acknowledged ...but they want to repeat it around a circle and pray after we’ve already gone around and said what we want to pray about...because that’s the background they come from and how they learned to pray, but I did not. It’s not something I can’t tolerate though. I want to ask that we have a moment for silent prayer instead...because that’s how I do it. Or, I save it for when I am alone, sitting silently. Like, if they ask me, I will pray about it, more deeply contemplate it, when I get home instead of parroting off some version of what we just said as if God doesn’t hear it until we all say something about it in that style. Rather, I learned to pray quietly.


Maybe next time I should ask if we can pray that we can pray quietly...and see what happens... :giggle::barefoot:


.. well I made myself laugh for once today, at least. Lord, continue to bless us with a sense of humour.


:)
 
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About praying out loud in the evangelical style...I have been very moved by how deeply and sincerely some people do it. It’s not always annoying, it can be touching and heartfelt. I guess I feel pressure, a little bit, to do it that way too.
 
Like Jerry Lee Lewis when crying out: "O'Lord bring down that dark cloud with the silver lining ... and take me to that river ... etc."

It really is a bad prayer of a man looking for rest and a dream ... right? Then there was the dream maker and interpreter ... a common John known as Joseph ... he didn't give into the Queen and thus wanders on in the essence! Some say this is seminal wisdom ... stuff of Jinns ... a mere icon!
 
A few comments:

@GiancarloZ
Testimonials by people are sometimes good, but there needs to be a decent balance in the way they are worded. As I often go in downtown Montréal, anyone that expresses a bold caricatural view of their involvement with God reminds me of those drunk or high people that had a "personal encounter with God", usually after acute substance abuse.

@BetteTheRed
I have nothing against "father, lord, king, he, him, his ". Except it's just one side of the coin. We need to pray about the other side too. What I hate is whey they oppose terms like "father" and "mighty" to "loving" and "compassionate", when these terms should go in the same sentence. God can be "the mighty compassionate father" or "the powerful overpowering mother"... all in the same sentence.

One issue I have with Evangelical music (or at least the ones I know) is that it is quite repetitive. It is as if all songs proclaim the very same message.

@Kimmio Laughterlove
"Praying out loud in the evangelical style". I have seen some churches where they do it respectfully and others where they don't. I enjoy it when there is enough time given to this activity so there is quiet time and, most importantly, when people pray one at a time and the whole congregation listens. Unfortunately, at least in Montréal, this seems to be old school and fairly much out of fashion and has been replaced by the style where everyone "prays" at the same time because, they say, it's more efficient.
 
mgagnonlv said:
@GiancarloZ
Testimonials by people are sometimes good, but there needs to be a decent balance in the way they are worded. As I often go in downtown Montréal, anyone that expresses a bold caricatural view of their involvement with God reminds me of those drunk or high people that had a "personal encounter with God", usually after acute substance abuse.
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I have nothing against the testimonials themselves, but, as you say, against the wording. It is common that people draw a line, and talk of themselves as sanctified, and of others as lost and/or evil. I tend to believe that every time we draw a line, Jesus goes to the other side.

mgagnonlv said:
One issue I have with Evangelical music (or at least the ones I know) is that it is quite repetitive. It is as if all songs proclaim the very same message.
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I do like some, and I hate others - for the same reason. They can become quite repetitive.

mgagnonlv said:
@Kimmio Laughterlove
"Praying out loud in the evangelical style". I have seen some churches where they do it respectfully and others where they don't. I enjoy it when there is enough time given to this activity so there is quiet time and, most importantly, when people pray one at a time and the whole congregation listens. Unfortunately, at least in Montréal, this seems to be old school and fairly much out of fashion and has been replaced by the style where everyone "prays" at the same time because, they say, it's more efficient.
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The thing with praying out loud is that people often don't know what to say and start to mumble and repeat things, as @Kimmio Laughterlove said. I learned some formulas to pray, or to conduct others in prayer while they stay silent, that don't make you sound stupid repeating things like "Father we just ask that you would". Those formulas are easy and very popular among Mainline Protestants in Brazil.
They are known here too, and summarized as ACTS (Adoration, Contrition, Thanksgiving, Supplication). We generally draw from the Psalms or the NT Letters.

Adoration:
Almighty God,
Blessed be your name forever for you led us out of sin through the waters of baptism, from death to new life in Christ Jesus, and is leading us to your new creation.
Contrition:
Blessed be your name, Lord our God, King of the Universe, for you're always faithful and gracious to pardon and forgive us our manifold sins, the evil that we have done, and the good that we have left undone.
Thanksgiving:
We praise and thank you for not only you formed us and knitted us together in our mothers' wombs, but you gave us abundant life and provides everything that we need. We praise you, oh God, for we are fearfully and wonderfully made and kept by you, like a Mother loves and takes care of her children.
Supplication:
As your beloved children, we humbly approach you as your Son has taught us, to ask for your care and presence amidst all our friends of WonderCafe2, their families, friends, and everything and everyone they hold dear. Take good care of them, protect them, and bless them, in the name of Jesus Christ, who reigns with you in the unity of the Holy Spirit, now and forever. Amen.
 
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I was thinking more of my small group, where we are at someone’s house, and we go around in a circle. I feel so self conscious and it doesn’t feel right for me to pray like that...by the time it gets to me I’m hoping that, in my anxiety, I won’t leave something out...like one of those memory games..and then I just bumble through feeling silly.

The prayer to God is not in the formula. I don’t think God cares about that. If you think it and feel it, God’s already heard it. We don’t need a special communication device (prayer formula) to reach God...whereby if we don’t do it a certain way, he can’t hear it. That doesn’t make sense. Prayer formulas and public praying out loud seem like ostentatious things to keep everyone in line with what church leaders wanted them to do, back in the old days.







:)
 
For me, prayer formulas help me to focus, and are more harmonious and beautiful than non-sense, repetitive mumbling. Beauty, harmony, and order are very important aspects of the divine for me, and they are the ways that lead me to a connection with God. Obviously, everyone is different and God will not "not hear" someone because they pray "the wrong way".
 
GiancarloZ said:
For me, prayer formulas help me to focus, and are more harmonious and beautiful than non-sense, repetitive mumbling. Beauty, harmony, and order are very important aspects of the divine for me, and they are the ways that lead me to a connection with God. Obviously, everyone is different and God will not "not hear" someone because they pray "the wrong way".
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By formula I was including the “Dear Lord we ask you...” stuff.


...some written prayers are beautiful and poetic.



:)
 
GiancarloZ said:
[About prayers, evangelical style..., Unfortunately, at least in Montréal, this seems to be old school and fairly much out of fashion and has been replaced by the style where everyone "prays" at the same time because, they say, it's more efficient.]

The thing with praying out loud is that people often don't know what to say and start to mumble and repeat things, as @Kimmio Laughterlove said....
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I can speak of a couple of places where there are a few people who start to mumble senseless stuff, but I have more than once heard the pastor asking people to pray aloud, all at the same time for one of these three reasons:
1. It will make a joyful sound to God's ears.
2.It will keep prayers confidential (and we are asked not to peek at our neighbours and to respect their privacy with God.
3.It will shorten the time needed for prayers!

Quite frankly I don't like these reasons:
1. That's probably the least stupid reason... although God doesn't need a special kind of noise. But some of us do.
2-3. I like to fully assume the choices we make as a congregation and more specifically the choices I make. If we do them aloud, it means we are ready as a community to allocate the time necessary to listen to the prayers and pray with the people who offered them. And if I, as an individual want to keep my prayers private, I won't say them aloud, period.

*********************

As for prayer formulas, I think they are useful as a tool, but I'm aware that for some people they seem to be an end rather than a tool. I tend to vary the forms of prayers I use, but one form that I'm particularly fond of is the Lord's Prayer: I use each of the sentences as a basis for my prayers: for the Lord (acknowledging the Lord's power and wisdom to guide me), for society, for my wrong actions, for my family and colleagues, etc.
 
Church today was great. It was the last day of the regular worship in our church this season. Next Sunday and throughout July we will worst meet worship together with the nearby United Church. In August they will come to our church.
Regrettably, it was a lost Sunday before our organist retires. She is good. There was a lot of music in the service, perhaps because with her playing we 'cannot keep from singing'. I don't know how we will replace her and her God-given talent.
After the service she was presented with gifts from the congregation, the choir, and the children. And we had a nice cake.

As we were leaving the church building my spirits were lifted again.
In recent years the city has been beautifying the downtown with benches and hanging baskets and flowerpots. And my eye was drawn to a large pot by the sidewalk near the church door. Instead of flowers it was planted in greenery – a bunch of leaf lettuce, a tomato plant, to bean plants, some chives, parsley, and other herbs. In a few weeks anybody walking by, or sitting on the church steps, will be able to break off a few leaves of lettuce for a salad or some herbs to add to the soup pot. What a great idea – especially for those people who come to our church for a bit of help. I only hope that not one person is greedy and strips the little garden or worse that no one vandalizes it.
As we drove home, I noticed that interspersed with the flowerpots, almost every block in the downtown area had a vegetable pot.
Not our church's idea- something we gladly support.
 
Church was okay. They had arranged for one of the Syrian refugee families they sponsored three years ago to come to speak to the congregation - which they did at both services. Both parents and all 4 kids spoke. There were also a few folks present from the church that co-sponsored this family. The parents commented that they knew nothing at all about Canada when they agreed to come. They had never flown anywhere. They spoke no English at all. Mom had only grade 6 education, Dad had 'finished' school. After a year of ESL, Dad was able to obtain full time employment as a mechanic & is highly respected in his shop, proud to be supporting his family. The kids all speak excellent English - a triibute I guess to our public education ESL system. Mom also continues with ESL and is speaking well. To me, and I know this sounds really cynical, there was a sense of pride conveyed by the people from the sponsorship group about the success of these people. They didn't comment on how they themselves had been changed by the experience of sponsorship. So part of me felt uncomfortable that this was a bit of a self serving display. Privately I asked myself - For how long do we expect refugees to be expressing their gratitude to us in such ways, so we can feel good about our own efforts? Okay - end of cynical comments.

Then there was the music. I've commented before about liking the band, but not the choice of 'praise music' - as others had mentioned similarly above. I was looking & listening on Sunday to the lyrics from a feminist perspective, and from a perspective which might be experienced by a person who had experienced sexual abuse. The sense of submission, lyrics about 'lay down and follow me', needing to be saved ... well, it all just disturbed me once again. I followed up with our M&P chair on the way out - trying to figure out what to do about this. I learned that I am not alone in expressing my concerns about the music. More pondering on next steps for me.

And then I volunteered to help with "Band Camp" that they run at the church - curious to learn more about that programme.
 
Carolla said:
Then there was the music. I've commented before about liking the band, but not the choice of 'praise music' - as others had mentioned similarly above. I was looking & listening on Sunday to the lyrics from a feminist perspective, and from a perspective which might be experienced by a person who had experienced sexual abuse. The sense of submission, lyrics about 'lay down and follow me', needing to be saved ... well, it all just disturbed me once again. I followed up with our M&P chair on the way out - trying to figure out what to do about this. I learned that I am not alone in expressing my concerns about the music. More pondering on next steps for me.
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The curious thing is that More Voices has a lot of beautiful contemporary hymns with a more progressive theology. If MV does not have a sufficient number of hymns and your congregations likes variety, Evangelical Lutheran Worship also has a a lot of progressive, upbeat ones.
 
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