Giving to PanHandlers

[airclean33]

Hi airclean33,



I think I know what you are saying here one minute and then the next I'm not at all sure. The sentences are badly mangled. Could you please rephrase.

Hi John --I know your very busy John at different times in the week. I thank you for giving me some of that time. --First John I was asking you on your thoughts on Hebrews2:-11 I see a bit down on your post . You get into this more.

I brought the Mormans in to highlight that the belief we become angels is a Mormon belief not a Christian one. That is why I brought them in.

That the Mormons had this belief . Was some what of a surprise . I had a friend who was Mormon he never told me of this. I also have the book of Mormon. in which I have never seen it.

I have asked if you believe that we will be come angels. You have not felt it necessary to answer the question with anything resembling a yes or a no.

John this is a question that GOD said I" can't give you an answer to. I will try an help you though. Ask GOD to answer it for you. But you have the question backwards.

unsafe said:
I believe the Bible as it is
Which is part of the problem with literalism.

It accepts without question that what we read is exactly what the authors of scripture meant.

And so when we read a translation with the word "gods" we are tempted to understand the word as we have always understood it and rarely do we take the time to consider whether or not that is the way the word was always used.
Please note my response to unsafe above on that point.[/QUOTE]
I take you to mean this.---


unsafe said:
I believe the Bible as it is
Which is part of the problem with literalism.

It accepts without question that what we read is exactly what the authors of scripture meant.

And so when we read a translation with the word "gods" we are tempted to understand the word as we have always understood it and rarely do we take the time to consider whether or not that is the way the word was always used.
unsafe said:
I believe the Bible as it is
Which is part of the problem with literalism.

It accepts without question that what we read is exactly what the authors of scripture meant.

And so when we read a translation with the word "gods" we are tempted to understand the word as we have always understood it and rarely do we take the time to consider whether or not that is the way the word was always used.
unsafe said:
I believe the Bible as it is
Which is part of the problem with literalism.

It accepts without question that what we read is exactly what the authors of scripture meant.

And so when we read a translation with the word "gods" we are tempted to understand the word as we have always understood it and rarely do we take the time to consider whether or not that is the way the word was always used.
unsafe said:
I believe the Bible as it is
Which is part of the problem with literalism.

It accepts without question that what we read is exactly what the authors of scripture meant.

And so when we read a translation with the word "gods" we are tempted to understand the word as we have always understood it and rarely do we take the time to consider whether or not that is the way the word was always used.

unsafe said:
I believe the Bible as it is
Which is part of the problem with literalism.

It accepts without question that what we read is exactly what the authors of scripture meant.

And so when we read a translation with the word "gods" we are tempted to understand the word as we have always understood it and rarely do we take the time to consider whether or not that is the way the word was always used.
I have to change the way I am posting. It will not accept my Quote.
_____________________________________________

unsafe said:
I believe the Bible as it is
Which is part of the problem with literalism.

It accepts without question that what we read is exactly what the authors of scripture meant.
_______________________________________________
This not being true though John. We who call are self Born again s. Use GODS Holy Spirit to help us understand . As I have already stated to you.

And so when we read a translation with the word "gods" we are tempted to understand the word as we have always understood it and rarely do we take the time to consider whether or not that is the way the word was always used.

I have stated that Jesus was fully human and fully divine that is a classic Christian understanding.




Because we are, by nature created beings. In the grand scheme of things we are always creature and never Creator no matter how creative as creatures we may be. Jesus is begotten in the flesh yet is also the agent by which all things that have been created were created.



No. Actually it doesn't. That might be what you are reading it to say. That is not what it is saying. When the author of Hebrews is speaking of one origin in Hebrews 2: 11 the origin pointed at is the Creation. All of us creatures originate in that Creation. All of us creatures were created good and we were pronounced good. That is our origin. We did not exist before in any way, shape or form.

Also in Hebrews 2: 11 is the claim that our Sanctifier/Redeemer is not ashamed to call us brethren. That does not mean that we become in nature as Christ is in nature. We will not become fully human and fully divine as Jesus is because we were never God to begin with. We bear God's image that doesn't make us God. God's Spirit dwells within us and gives us counsel, that doesn't make us Gods either.

Redemption is not about making us something different than what we were intended to be it is about restoring what we have lost. We will still be the image of God but we will not become God.



Whether it is another door or a complete restoration project is a matter of debate. That we will become one with God is not. Of course being one with does not mean becoming the same as. You are married. You have become one with your wife. I've never met you but I bet you and your wife are not the same people. If I were to see you on the street and wave and shout "Hello Mrs. Airclean33" you would think I'm playing a game." It I saw your wife on the street and waved and shouted "Hello Airclean33" she would not think too highly of me.

And yet, isn't that the teaching of scripture? That man shall leave his mother and father cleave to his wife and the two will become one flesh? I presume neither you nor your wife have been physically swallowed up by the other and that you look like an average couple and not a set of con-joined twins.


Probably depends on the crowds one hangs with. I have absolutely no difficulty with the notion that the Holy Spirit which indwells me is every bit God as is the Father and the Son. At best that makes me tabernacle, God's dwelling place, it does not make me God. In Christ I am a new creation but I am not a god. I will never be God in whole or in part. I will always be creature and never Creator.

There is no place in scripture where we read the words in their original context and with their original understanding that teaches we will ever be more than human. There are places which talk about humans that are degenerate (fallen) and regenerate (redeemed) or simply just generated (at Creation). All other ideas that suggest we will throw of our physical bodies or suggest that we will become little gods or even angels are ideas that originate outside of the scripture and twist scripture to fit the idea.


On principle I agree with all of that. Again God being in us makes us tabernacles and we bear the image of God which doesn't make us originally gods it makes us photocopies of or facsimiles of. If I paint a picture of fruit, capturing the image of the fruit perfectly it is still just paint on canvas and not actually fruit.

Getting carried away proves only that you have been carried away. It does not prove what has carried you away.[/QUOTE]I spent an hr an a half filling this out. not doing twise thanks

 

[Seeler]

I'm struggling to sort out and read the above post.
I don't know why -- except that it is part of a thread that I started, although the thread has been off topic for some time now.

 

[Lastpointe]

Me too Seeler.

It is a quote issue, I found it hard to figure out what of rev johns post was quoted and what was new content.

 

[Mendalla]

Chansens's attempt at teaching ac how to quote apparently has not sunk in yet.

 

[airclean33]

I'm struggling to sort out and read the above post.
I don't know why -- except that it is part of a thread that I started, although the thread has been off topic for some time now.

Hi Seeler --- I am one of those who took your thread off track . I had tried to answer a question put froward by another member. As you know it some times happens here. You have my apology . I will post no farther , this thread --- God Bless-- airclean33

 

[crazyheart]

@airclean33 , I think that threads go where they go. In fact, I learned this from Rev John - so carry on.

 

[Seeler]

I wasn't complaining about it being off-track (perhaps we had said enough on the subject). I was explaining my continued following along.

 

[Jaebius]

It's hard to make threads keep on track. I know many of them are thrown for a loop. Conversations in real life are the same way. It's okay, we just have to work and play, for tomorrow we will be held accountable.

 

[Tabitha]

so, to jump back on track, Bissell Centre in Edmonton, partially funded by UC of Can. M and S has a new policy. It's Housing First. They began to realize that all other help was just temporary and everyone needed a safe house-and then they could address other issues ie job training, budgeting, healthcare, mental health etc.
They do have a food bank-it used to be the first hamper was no questions asked, the 2nd hamper they connected you to a worker. You can google them
They also run a neat daycare. Any family can enroll their children 1 day a week. No Cost. Full time care is offered to families in crisis -ie more appointments for parents, new job until they can arrange other childcare etc..

 

[crazyheart]

I wasn't complaining about it being off-track (perhaps we had said enough on the subject). I was explaining my continued following along.

I knew you weren't complaining seeler. Th

 

[You just never know]

I've been volunteering at my church for the past year, welcoming those who come to our door looking for help - a hand-out or a hand-up. Some just need a little help over a rough stop - others are regulars who, for one reason or another - often related to health, will never be self-supporting. My job is to make them feel welcome, be a hostess, provide coffee and snacks, talk to them, be a friend. I've come to know some of them; I've heard their stories.

Recently, I was leaving after Sunday service. Just outside the door, just ahead of me I saw a panhandler approach a couple. They brushed past him as though he didn't exist. I recognized him as one of our regulars.

Now I've heard arguments against giving to panhandlers, and I didn't have any change ready - but how could I welcome this man on Wednesday mornings, and ignore him on Sunday morning? I dug into my purse and pulled out a couple of quarters - not much - but I dropped it into his hat, looked him in the face and told him "Good morning." He looked at me, recognized me, and reached out his arms. We hugged. I have a feeling that being recognized and spoken to was more important to him than my spare change. I wonder how he would have reacted if I had simply stopped to talk. I couldn't remember his name - I wish that I'd been able to call him by name.

I worked at a Salvation Army shelter and it was horrible the hoops they made people jump through just to receive help. I never give to a Sally Ann kettle but instead cut out the middle man and give directly to the panhandlers.

 

[Spirit Wind 7]

Yes, Jesus did do a walk about ministry. Often on his way to another place, but met life on the road of his own life and didn't back away. Some are afraid to help this way, either chatting, or giving. I was once asked for a quarter, and I only had a toonie, so gave him that. He wept. I was certainly aware of another presence with us. This man had nothing even for a coffee, this small gift was abundance to him. I will never forget.

One person took someone for lunch and ate with her, then gave her bus money. Several years later, in another city, this woman recognized her and came and spoke to her. She said she used the money for booze, but the kindness she received wasn't quiet. It had changed something in her resolve to love herself, and she got the education she needed for what she wanted to do and was doing it. This had taken time, but transformation slowly came.

I wonder sometimes if we would like to see, or have instant changes in others. But we haven't got their story, so hope and belief that the Spirit is always acting in us, and everyone else, makes everything possible. We do something and there is a result. It may be a positive one, or negative, but trusting the Spirit knows the timing, their stories, ours as well. Patience in this may need to be cultivated and nurtured.

As long as society allows such great differences in pay, education, discriminating factors, and judging others, we will be seeing those who are marginalized needing more help. Society seems ambivalent, often indifferent. I used to think we paid taxes mainly to help even out these terrible gaps, but apparently not. And lately, even less than before.

I often wonder if Jesus knew why there would always be marginalized people? It is Society's work to overcome those stigmas and not produce more of them. Churches need to be leading the way, not compromising it. Perhaps the United Church needs to keep this in front of themselves, as many come to help when we are doing just that.... serving others. People want to act to make a balance and how will peace be forged unless we do that very thing? This the call of our Faith and many others....we are not alone, but we were not promised a safe message to share, or safety in following it. If you look at history it is the truth tellers who are told to be quiet, shunned, killed, and, or, jailed.

Why is that? Are we prepared? It may be that the Fishing on the Other Side document is just that, but hopefully the focus is not for saving the Church, but living the message. That is what will create a new way to be.

Peace be to you....

 

[Hermann]

I am reluctant to give money to pan handlers because most of them will use it to buy alcohol, tobacco, or other drugs. Instead I support the Upper Room Mission, which, here in Vernon, serves free meals and coffee all week except Sundays, and on Sundays the various churches take turns doing it.

To really hep the destitute requires counseling, detoxification, rehabilitation, training and education, none of which can be accomplished by dropping a Loonie into someone's hat, but is provided by various community organizations and state and church. We all can actively or passively support those agencies or organizations that provide these services.