Me either. I'm not responsible and hard-working enough.
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Me either. I'm not responsible and hard-working enough.
Do you take all of these abilities literally? Could not some, or perhaps even all, of them be metaphorical?
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I've never bought the idea that we are God. It is a dangerous attitude to take, lacking altogether in the humility that is really needed for us to have the relationship that we should with the universe.
From a pantheist standpoint (at least as I view it and I know Hermann, Neo, and I all approach this somewhat differently), we are part of a much bigger Cosmos. That Cosmos is "God" as much as I believe in one at all. While that Cosmos is certainly manifest in each of us and our lives, we are not the whole of it, just an "image" of that whole, so one cannot say "I am God" (and even "I am a god", which is a different thing, is debatable) nor are we sovereign over it. We exist in an interdependent relationship with the rest of that Cosmos and need to respect that interdependence and use the abilities that we possess responsibly in that context. Yes, we can change our world in very profound ways but it is constantly changing us, too. Evolution has not stopped nor have the other forces that shape our existence. Sovereignty, if it exists at all, is a two-way street and, really, the situation is far more complex than saying "God is sovereign" or "We are sovereign". It is often when we try to exert sovereignty that we get into trouble. Were we truly "God" in the classical sense, we could change/control the universe and ensure our survival. As it is, we will be lucky to survive as long as the dinosaurs did and our misuse of our abilities could be our undoing.
From a pantheist standpoint (at least as I view it and I know Hermann, Neo, and I all approach this somewhat differently), we are part of a much bigger Cosmos. That Cosmos is "God" as much as I believe in one at all. While that Cosmos is certainly manifest in each of us and our lives, we are not the whole of it, just an "image" of that whole, so one cannot say "I am God" (and even "I am a god", which is a different thing, is debatable) nor are we sovereign over it. We exist in an interdependent relationship with the rest of that Cosmos and need to respect that interdependence and use the abilities that we possess responsibly in that context. Yes, we can change our world in very profound ways but it is constantly changing us, too. Evolution has not stopped nor have the other forces that shape our existence. Sovereignty, if it exists at all, is a two-way street and, really, the situation is far more complex than saying "God is sovereign" or "We are sovereign". It is often when we try to exert sovereignty that we get into trouble. Were we truly "God" in the classical sense, we could change/control the universe and ensure our survival. As it is, we will be lucky to survive as long as the dinosaurs did and our misuse of our abilities could be our undoing.
revsdd
Well-Known Member
airclean, God is in charge. God is sovereign. God existing and revealed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We have authority, given to us by God.
And unsafe, all that being the case, since you claim to have the ability to do all this then I look forward to watching as you walk on water, raise the dead, take up serpents and drink deadly poison without either harming you.
Let me ask you a serious question - do you believe that you can do all those things? Not that you have the ability. That's weaseling. Can you do those things? Have you done those things? Yes or no? I'll concede that you can do them if God gives you the ability to do them. But you seem to be claiming that you in yourself have the ability simply because you have "put on Christ Jesus." So - can you do these things or have you done them. Clear question, requiring a direct and simple answer.
(I don't really expect a direct and simple answer. Been through this before.)
And unsafe, all that being the case, since you claim to have the ability to do all this then I look forward to watching as you walk on water, raise the dead, take up serpents and drink deadly poison without either harming you.
Let me ask you a serious question - do you believe that you can do all those things? Not that you have the ability. That's weaseling. Can you do those things? Have you done those things? Yes or no? I'll concede that you can do them if God gives you the ability to do them. But you seem to be claiming that you in yourself have the ability simply because you have "put on Christ Jesus." So - can you do these things or have you done them. Clear question, requiring a direct and simple answer.
(I don't really expect a direct and simple answer. Been through this before.)
revjohn
Well-Known Member
unsafe said:
Okay.
unsafe said:
True. That is how the KJV translates from the Hebrew. I have made you a god.
That is not how other translations render the Hebrew text.
NIV=I have made you like God . . .
NRSV=I have made you like God . . .
NLT=I will make you seem like God . . .
MSG=I'll make you as a god . . .
AMP=I make you as God . . .
GNV 1599=I have made thee Pharoah's God
OJB=I have made thee as Elohim to . . .
CJB=I have put you in the place of God . . .
Based on the Consensus of translations this text is not teaching that we are Gods. It is teaching that Moses will be elevated above Pharoah (who in Egyptian tradition was considered a god). It is not God declaring that Moses will be God or even a god. It is teaching that Moses will be made like God.
What does that mean? To be made like God.
If I am made like an orange what does that mean? Does it mean that I have, as a matter of fact, become an orange? Not in a proper understanding of how the English language works. It means that there is an easy and reasonable comparison between myself and an orange. It might refer to my shape, my colour or even the way I smell fruity fresh.
That is a partial quote at best. It also has material which is extraneous to the actual scripture to confuse the matter.unsafe said:
KJV=Is it not written in your Law, I said, Ye are gods?
NIV=Is it not written in your Law, I said, You are gods?
NRSV=Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods?
NLT=It is written in your own scriptures that God said to certain leaders of the people, I say you are gods!
MSG=I'm only quoting your inspired scriptures where God said, I tell you--you are gods.
AMP=Is it not written in your Law, I said, you are gods?
GNV 1599=Is it not written in your Law, I said, Ye are gods?
OJB=Has it not been written in your Torah, ANI AMARTI ELOHIM ATEM (I said, you are g-ds)
CJB=Isn't it written in your Torah, I have said, you people are Elohim?
Is Jesus here claiming that we are gods? No. He is doing no such thing. He is asking if the scriptures contain the phrase, I have said, you are gods" The language of Jesus' question is very clear.
He is asking this question in the context of an allegation of blasphemy which in itself is the response of his Jewish opponents to his claim in John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."
The text he refers to is Psalm 82: 6
KJV=I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
NIV=“I said, ‘You are “gods”, you are all sons of the Most High.
NRSV=I say, “You are gods, children of the Most High, all of you;
NLT=I say, ‘You are gods; you are all children of the Most High.
MSG=“I commissioned you judges, each one of you, deputies of the High God, But you’ve betrayed your commission and now you’re stripped of your rank, busted.”
AMP=I said, You are gods [since you judge on My behalf, as My representatives]; indeed, all of you are children of the Most High.
GNV 1599=I have said, Ye are gods, and ye all are children of the most High.
OJB=I have said, elohim ye are; and all of you are Bnei HaElyon.
CJB=“My decree is: ‘You are elohim [gods, judges], sons of the Most High all of you.
Does Psalm 82: 6 actually teach that we gods?
Read literally it would appear that way. Unless we make an effort to come to an educated understanding of how the Hebrew word Elohim may be used.
Strong's said:
And another resource
Brown said:
Brown said:
So, there is some choice as to how to interpret that particular word in this particular context.
Are there any hints as to which option makes the most sense? Like Psalm 82: 7 for example?
KJV=But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
NIV=But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler.”
NRSV=nevertheless, you shall die like mortals, and fall like any prince.”
NLT=But you will die like mere mortals and fall like every other ruler.
MSG=“I commissioned you judges, each one of you, deputies of the High God, But you’ve betrayed your commission and now you’re stripped of your rank, busted.”
AMP=But you shall die as men and fall as one of the princes.
GNV 1599=But ye shall die as a man, and ye princes shall fall like others.
OJB=But ye shall die like adam, and fall like one of the sarim (princes).
CJB=Nevertheless, you will die like mortals; like any prince, you will fall.’”
Having the Elohim/gods of Psalm 82: 6 immediately contrasted with princes/rulers/mortals and others in Psalm 82: 6 suggests that the Psalm is not teaching that we are gods and is instead referring to judges or princes of Israel.
I believe that a reading of Psalm 82: 2-4 which is directed against the rulers of Israel and their duties and obligations makes it clear that the Psalm does not teach that we are gods like God is God and instead it teaches that the leaders/princes/rulers/magistrates of Israel who are like gods to the people are being called to account for their abuses of power.
In much the same way Exodus 7: 1 is not teaching that Moses is god but will be made a prince/ruler/judge over Pharoah.
The only way these texts can be read as stating definitively that we (christians/believers) are gods in the same way God is God is ignorantly. Scripture is very plain we are not God. Jesus is God the Son or Son of God the rest of us are sons (daughters). The reason why we don't capitalize the "s" when we are referring to ourselves is because we are not under the impression that we are on the same level as Jesus. Heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ we might be. Equal to or the same as we definitely are not.
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Not unsafe nor airclean, but here's my answer as a conservative Christian who has been linked with unsafe and airclean by some in the past...
I believe that God through humans, including me, can do all of those things. However, I take the vast majority of those things to be metaphorical/spiritual in nature.
I have never literally cast out demons, taken up snakes, survived the drinking of poison, nor instantaneously/miraculously healed someone.
revsdd
Well-Known Member
revjohn, there are times when I stand in awe of your patience in doing all the writing you do in response. Well, actually I'm not standing. I'm sitting. So I'm sitting in awe. Same thing. Metaphorically speaking. I didn't mean that I was literally "standing" in awe. I know literal vs metaphor is tough sometimes. So, to be more clear: revjohn - I admire your patience in posting all the information you post with such clarity.
unsafe
Well-Known Member
Pr . jae ----You and all others can believe what you all want to ----I believe that all that except Christ today have the ability to do all that Jesus did ----that is my belief -----I believe the Bible as it is ---you have every right to believe what you want to ---I don't have any problem with your belief --you are the one that has the problem with my belief ----Why is it OK for you all to have your beliefs but it is not OK for airclean33 and myself to have our beliefs ---you are the ones with the problem of our beliefs ---if you think it is dangerous thinking than for you it is dangerous --for me it is not ---you need to prove to yourself not me that the scripture is wrong ---I believe it is right ----- I don't have to answer to you or anyone about what I believe or prove anything to anyone ----I will know when I die just like you all will know when you all die ---who is right or wrong ----until then I will have my belief as you do ----and just like you all I will post what I believe -----Period ------Let me have my belief and post it like you post what you believe ----If you don't agree that is fine by me --post that you don't agree ----don't get demanding about proving to you anything ---I don't have to be in bondage to you or anyone in this wonderful life I live ------Jesus died so I could be free of people bondage ------Amen ----Thanks be to God for that -----
Peace
Peace
airclean33
Well-Known Member
Hi Rev --I believe your mistaken Rev. Christ Jesus is in Charge just now . Until all enemy"s are under His feet . Then He will hand it all back to GOD The Father.
Rev Steven --this seems more to Unsafe than me.But it you will I two will answer I hope this does not mean , your looking for a sign .Otherwize I give you no sign ,save that of Christ Jesus. His death and being raised in 3 days.Some of the thing from the where you take your post .GOD has had me do. I too would welcome Unsafe walking on water. But do not need this to show me who She is.
To me rev --your asking a question . Then saying I must answer , in two or three words.To be short . I Believe GODS Words.
These are your thoughts Steven . So before I post, in your mind we have failed. God Bless-- airclean33
revjohn
Well-Known Member
unsafe said:
Which is part of the problem with literalism.
It accepts without question that what we read is exactly what the authors of scripture meant.
And so when we read a translation with the word "gods" we are tempted to understand the word as we have always understood it and rarely do we take the time to consider whether or not that is the way the word was always used.
Strongs Concordance and the Brown, Driver and Briggs lexicon are two of the most trusted resources we have in the English language which help us to understand the Hebrew and Greek meanings of words we think we are familiar with.
Both resources show that it is possible that Elohim (regularly translated as God or gods) has other meanings which are not, strictly speaking a reference to divinity so much as they are an honourific. The only way we can know what the word means is to let it speak from its own context.
If you want to believe that scripture teaches we are gods then you are welcome to have that belief. That is not what scripture teaches and to come to that conclusion you do not read the Bible as it is. You read it as it appears.
unsafe said:
That might technically be true. You do seem to have a problem with us suggesting that our belief is Biblical. Otherwise you wouldn't continually contrast our belief vs the Bible.
unsafe said:
That is fair comment.
unsafe said:
Nobody is telling you or airclean33 to not have beliefs.
So far most comment is that your beliefs are not based on a proper understanding of scripture.
Which, unless I am missing something, is frequently how you and airclean33 comment on our beliefs. That we do not understand the scripture.
If it is fair for you to make that criticism then how is it suddenly unfair for us to make that criticism?
unsafe said:
Again, unless I am mistaken it is typically you who demands proof from others.
"Prove the Bible is wrong." is one of your favourite lines of attack when any of us disagree with your particular interpretation.
If it is fair for you to demand proof then how is it unfair of others to ask you to provide proof of your own?
As far as my post goes.
I didn't demand proof from anyone.
I challenged claims and I laid my proofs out as I built my position.
The reason why I do that is so that people can follow my train of thought and if they spot an error they can show me what it is.
unsafe, you have the right to practice and propagate your beliefs. They don't bother me. I do disagree with some of them.
airclean33
Well-Known Member
Good afternoon Rev John---I hope all is well with you John. Your posted tired me out just reading it. It has many of your thoughts in it. Not that this is bad. But I don't always see things as you do. So of course here once more I can't agree with all you posted.There are other parts . I have no time to get into.
There is one part here --Johns post--
The only way these texts can be read as stating definitively that we (christians/believers) are gods in the same way God is God is ignorantly. Scripture is very plain we are not God. Jesus is God the Son or Son of God the rest of us are sons (daughters). The reason why we don't capitalize the "s" when we are referring to ourselves is because we are not under the impression that we are on the same level as Jesus. Heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ we might be. Equal to or the same as we definitely are not.{/Quote)
Of course even though Christ was on earth as a man Jesus. This could not apply to Him though. My big question then becomes why? Do you have that answer John?With out saying Jesus, was not fully Man?
There is one part here --Johns post--
The only way these texts can be read as stating definitively that we (christians/believers) are gods in the same way God is God is ignorantly. Scripture is very plain we are not God. Jesus is God the Son or Son of God the rest of us are sons (daughters). The reason why we don't capitalize the "s" when we are referring to ourselves is because we are not under the impression that we are on the same level as Jesus. Heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ we might be. Equal to or the same as we definitely are not.{/Quote)
Of course even though Christ was on earth as a man Jesus. This could not apply to Him though. My big question then becomes why? Do you have that answer John?With out saying Jesus, was not fully Man?
revjohn
Well-Known Member
Hi airclean33
Fair question.
One which I believe scripture takes pains to lay out.
Jesus is human. Just as human as you and I. Jesus is also God. Which you and I are not.
You will never hear me saying that Jesus is not fully human.
You will also never hear me saying that Jesus is not fully divine.
Which means that Jesus is both.
God the Father is fully God though not fully human.
I am fully human and not even minutely God.
Jesus stands alone, uniquely alone, in that he is both fully human and fully divine.
airclean33 said:
Fair question.
One which I believe scripture takes pains to lay out.
Jesus is human. Just as human as you and I. Jesus is also God. Which you and I are not.
airclean33 said:
You will never hear me saying that Jesus is not fully human.
You will also never hear me saying that Jesus is not fully divine.
Which means that Jesus is both.
God the Father is fully God though not fully human.
I am fully human and not even minutely God.
Jesus stands alone, uniquely alone, in that he is both fully human and fully divine.
airclean33
Well-Known Member
Rev John --Just wondering John . What is your understanding of this
Heb 2:8 putting everything in subjection under his feet." Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. As it is, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for every one.
Heb 2:10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.
Heb 2:11 For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified have all one origin. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
revjohn
Well-Known Member
Hi airclean33,
Asked and answered airclean33.
We have discussed these scriptures before and my answer has not changed.
That conversation begins here: http://www.wondercafe2.ca/index.php?threads/the-eternal-sacrifice-of-christ.547/page-7
airclean33 said:
Asked and answered airclean33.
We have discussed these scriptures before and my answer has not changed.
That conversation begins here: http://www.wondercafe2.ca/index.php?threads/the-eternal-sacrifice-of-christ.547/page-7
airclean33
Well-Known Member
Hi John---And as I see you really didn't have an answer there as well.
airclean33 said:
Heb 2:10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.
By getting this am I supposed to be getting the idea that we become angels?
Because if that is how you understand this passage you are, in my opinion, not only way off of anything approaching understanding of what the text is saying.
airclean33 said:
Heb 2:11 For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified have all one origin. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brethren,Again, if you understand that having all one origin means that we will all become angels I can't see that being remotely close to what the text teaches.
Such a belief is prevalent in Mormonism but not Christianity.
Airclean -- are you now saying Mormons wrote The Bible?
airclean33 said:
Heb 2:10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.
By getting this am I supposed to be getting the idea that we become angels?
Because if that is how you understand this passage you are, in my opinion, not only way off of anything approaching understanding of what the text is saying.
airclean33 said:
Such a belief is prevalent in Mormonism but not Christianity.
Airclean -- are you now saying Mormons wrote The Bible?
revjohn
Well-Known Member
Hi airclean33,
I answered. You simply don't accept the answer and invent some imaginary answer to move on to.
This is a classic example.
I mention that the belief that we will become angels is Mormon not Christian and you leap to the conclusion that I claim that Mormons wrote the Bible.
Mormons did not write the Bible. Mormons are responsible for the book of Mormon which they claim is equivalent to and in fact surpasses the Bible.
Mormons apply their interpretations to the Bible claiming that the Bible says what they have always believed.
It isn't a new phenomenon.
Roman Catholics claim that the scriptures teach Apostolic succession and papal infalibility. Protestants disagree.
Jehovah's Witnesses claim Jesus was not crucified on a cross but a stake. Christians disagree.
For some reason you have come to believe (or you appear to believe) that we will become angels. That is not viewed as a traditional Christian belief it is viewed as a traditional Christian error.
airclean33 said:
I answered. You simply don't accept the answer and invent some imaginary answer to move on to.
airclean33 said:
This is a classic example.
I mention that the belief that we will become angels is Mormon not Christian and you leap to the conclusion that I claim that Mormons wrote the Bible.
Mormons did not write the Bible. Mormons are responsible for the book of Mormon which they claim is equivalent to and in fact surpasses the Bible.
Mormons apply their interpretations to the Bible claiming that the Bible says what they have always believed.
It isn't a new phenomenon.
Roman Catholics claim that the scriptures teach Apostolic succession and papal infalibility. Protestants disagree.
Jehovah's Witnesses claim Jesus was not crucified on a cross but a stake. Christians disagree.
For some reason you have come to believe (or you appear to believe) that we will become angels. That is not viewed as a traditional Christian belief it is viewed as a traditional Christian error.
airclean33
Well-Known Member
Hi Rev John --Where in my postings do you see , I asked you what I thought?This I don't believe you can do. What I did ask Rev is what you thought. As I two can't always read your mind.You were the one to bring in the Mormans in . God Bless them. Of course there beliefs are theirs . I don't believe as they do.What they believe is a bit out for me. I already stated I believe GODS Word The Bible . I have also said , I speak with the Holy Spirit.You stated the man Jesus was more than a man. You also said he was . But we can't be. I don't get it. What makes you think that?The passage I gave seems to say different. It seems to say The Christ has opened another door to us . That door is to become one with GOD. This is my Belief. For He in GOD, Us in Him , GOD in us. GOD with us and in us.Why is it we can agree GOD is in all living things. Yet when it is talked about how Humankind Has God in Them. We start running around like chicken little?I know you understand our GOD is a wondrous GOD , His ways beyond even are thoughts. His thoughts our little minds, can not hope to understand. He I believe, is in us for this very reason," to explain those things we can not know with out Him. It happens John when I speak . I will sometimes get carried away. God Bless --airclean33
revjohn
Well-Known Member
Hi airclean33,
I think I know what you are saying here one minute and then the next I'm not at all sure. The sentences are badly mangled. Could you please rephrase.
I brought the Mormans in to highlight that the belief we become angels is a Mormon belief not a Christian one. That is why I brought them in.
I have asked if you believe that we will be come angels. You have not felt it necessary to answer the question with anything resembling a yes or a no.
Please note my response to unsafe above on that point.
Which no one is challenging at present. Unless you consider the fact that we refuse to bow to your belief a challenge.
I have stated that Jesus was fully human and fully divine that is a classic Christian understanding.
Because we are, by nature created beings. In the grand scheme of things we are always creature and never Creator no matter how creative as creatures we may be. Jesus is begotten in the flesh yet is also the agent by which all things that have been created were created.
No. Actually it doesn't. That might be what you are reading it to say. That is not what it is saying. When the author of Hebrews is speaking of one origin in Hebrews 2: 11 the origin pointed at is the Creation. All of us creatures originate in that Creation. All of us creatures were created good and we were pronounced good. That is our origin. We did not exist before in any way, shape or form.
Also in Hebrews 2: 11 is the claim that our Sanctifier/Redeemer is not ashamed to call us brethren. That does not mean that we become in nature as Christ is in nature. We will not become fully human and fully divine as Jesus is because we were never God to begin with. We bear God's image that doesn't make us God. God's Spirit dwells within us and gives us counsel, that doesn't make us Gods either.
Redemption is not about making us something different than what we were intended to be it is about restoring what we have lost. We will still be the image of God but we will not become God.
Whether it is another door or a complete restoration project is a matter of debate. That we will become one with God is not. Of course being one with does not mean becoming the same as. You are married. You have become one with your wife. I've never met you but I bet you and your wife are not the same people. If I were to see you on the street and wave and shout "Hello Mrs. Airclean33" you would think I'm playing a game." It I saw your wife on the street and waved and shouted "Hello Airclean33" she would not think too highly of me.
And yet, isn't that the teaching of scripture? That man shall leave his mother and father cleave to his wife and the two will become one flesh? I presume neither you nor your wife have been physically swallowed up by the other and that you look like an average couple and not a set of con-joined twins.
Probably depends on the crowds one hangs with. I have absolutely no difficulty with the notion that the Holy Spirit which indwells me is every bit God as is the Father and the Son. At best that makes me tabernacle, God's dwelling place, it does not make me God. In Christ I am a new creation but I am not a god. I will never be God in whole or in part. I will always be creature and never Creator.
There is no place in scripture where we read the words in their original context and with their original understanding that teaches we will ever be more than human. There are places which talk about humans that are degenerate (fallen) and regenerate (redeemed) or simply just generated (at Creation). All other ideas that suggest we will throw of our physical bodies or suggest that we will become little gods or even angels are ideas that originate outside of the scripture and twist scripture to fit the idea.
On principle I agree with all of that. Again God being in us makes us tabernacles and we bear the image of God which doesn't make us originally gods it makes us photocopies of or facsimiles of. If I paint a picture of fruit, capturing the image of the fruit perfectly it is still just paint on canvas and not actually fruit.
Getting carried away proves only that you have been carried away. It does not prove what has carried you away.
airclean33 said:
I think I know what you are saying here one minute and then the next I'm not at all sure. The sentences are badly mangled. Could you please rephrase.
airclean33 said:
I brought the Mormans in to highlight that the belief we become angels is a Mormon belief not a Christian one. That is why I brought them in.
I have asked if you believe that we will be come angels. You have not felt it necessary to answer the question with anything resembling a yes or a no.
airclean33 said:
Please note my response to unsafe above on that point.
airclean33 said:
Which no one is challenging at present. Unless you consider the fact that we refuse to bow to your belief a challenge.
airclean33 said:
I have stated that Jesus was fully human and fully divine that is a classic Christian understanding.
airclean33 said:
Because we are, by nature created beings. In the grand scheme of things we are always creature and never Creator no matter how creative as creatures we may be. Jesus is begotten in the flesh yet is also the agent by which all things that have been created were created.
airclean33 said:
No. Actually it doesn't. That might be what you are reading it to say. That is not what it is saying. When the author of Hebrews is speaking of one origin in Hebrews 2: 11 the origin pointed at is the Creation. All of us creatures originate in that Creation. All of us creatures were created good and we were pronounced good. That is our origin. We did not exist before in any way, shape or form.
Also in Hebrews 2: 11 is the claim that our Sanctifier/Redeemer is not ashamed to call us brethren. That does not mean that we become in nature as Christ is in nature. We will not become fully human and fully divine as Jesus is because we were never God to begin with. We bear God's image that doesn't make us God. God's Spirit dwells within us and gives us counsel, that doesn't make us Gods either.
Redemption is not about making us something different than what we were intended to be it is about restoring what we have lost. We will still be the image of God but we will not become God.
airclean33 said:
Whether it is another door or a complete restoration project is a matter of debate. That we will become one with God is not. Of course being one with does not mean becoming the same as. You are married. You have become one with your wife. I've never met you but I bet you and your wife are not the same people. If I were to see you on the street and wave and shout "Hello Mrs. Airclean33" you would think I'm playing a game." It I saw your wife on the street and waved and shouted "Hello Airclean33" she would not think too highly of me.
And yet, isn't that the teaching of scripture? That man shall leave his mother and father cleave to his wife and the two will become one flesh? I presume neither you nor your wife have been physically swallowed up by the other and that you look like an average couple and not a set of con-joined twins.
airclean33 said:
Probably depends on the crowds one hangs with. I have absolutely no difficulty with the notion that the Holy Spirit which indwells me is every bit God as is the Father and the Son. At best that makes me tabernacle, God's dwelling place, it does not make me God. In Christ I am a new creation but I am not a god. I will never be God in whole or in part. I will always be creature and never Creator.
There is no place in scripture where we read the words in their original context and with their original understanding that teaches we will ever be more than human. There are places which talk about humans that are degenerate (fallen) and regenerate (redeemed) or simply just generated (at Creation). All other ideas that suggest we will throw of our physical bodies or suggest that we will become little gods or even angels are ideas that originate outside of the scripture and twist scripture to fit the idea.
airclean33 said:
On principle I agree with all of that. Again God being in us makes us tabernacles and we bear the image of God which doesn't make us originally gods it makes us photocopies of or facsimiles of. If I paint a picture of fruit, capturing the image of the fruit perfectly it is still just paint on canvas and not actually fruit.
airclean33 said:
Getting carried away proves only that you have been carried away. It does not prove what has carried you away.