Euthanasia in Canada, Supreme Court Ruled this Morning

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

@chansen if we start out with a ruling that misdefines Disability anything that follows from that ruling does also.

 

[Northwind]

...meaning, if people are going to skip over how disability was used in this ruling as though insignificant then how can I respect their opinion?

I tried to agree with you on that, and you ultimately discounted what I had to say

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I tried to agree with you on that, and you ultimately discounted what I had to say

Which post?

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

@Northwind yes you have much more knowledge and experience with addictions.

 

[Delightful Life]

I wonder what this conversation would look like if the majority of the participants in this thread were terminally ill?

maybe something like an AIDS hospice i've volunteered for?
where people were irreverent, joking & this one guy recited from his edda to his own caca?

 

[Waterfall]

Kimmio, I am listening but to be honest with you this thread has become so long some of your basic ideas have been lost. Would you be so kind as to recap your basic points in point form?

 

[Waterfall]

maybe something like an AIDS hospice i've volunteered for?
where people were irreverent, joking & this one guy recited from his edda to his own caca?

It's true, some can even laugh in deaths face. Often they wait for permission from their loved ones to let them go too because they have accepted their fate.

 

[Waterfall]

Justme, thank you for sharing that perspective. It has been my experience and teaching that allowing people to talk about suicide reduces the risk they will actually commit suicide. If someone is talking about it, they want options and part of them wants to live. It is nice to hear validation of that view from your perspective.

Totally agree with this! There is a certain shame associated with suicide, depression, anxieties that needs to be talked about in order to allow people to come out of hiding. It's the hiding and isolation that promotes suicide as the only option.

 

[Delightful Life]

I hope so Hermann, because as a whole our society is not very comfortable being around the dying.

i wonder why, given that the dominant BS is still Christianity, why that is so? A failure? A part of life that Canadian Christianity doesn't do good at?

musings...

 

[Delightful Life]

@Northwind I've been an on again off again smoker for years (gross I know - it began as a peer pressure thing. It's one of the things I regret most in my life). It's not the cravings (which is the addiction) that'll kill me it's the cigarettes. I can have cravings, even after months of quitting. Years. Maybe always from time to time. And they suck. I have a friend who quit for good 17 years ago and she still craves cigarettes sometimes. But the addiction to the cigarettes itself doesn't kill. It causes what can be extremely uncomfortable physical sensations but they are actually harmless. The cigarettes might kill me if I were to continue to smoke instead of resist the craving.

i grok
one of my vices is my one cigar a year
why i think i didn't get a habit is i noticed in HS when i started automatically wanting a cigarette -- i can still remember the feeling of solace when smoking one
and i still love the smell of pipe tobacco

 

[Waterfall]

i wonder why, given that the dominant BS is still Christianity, why that is so? A failure? A part of life that Canadian Christianity doesn't do good at?

musings...

Well from what I've observed, most people act as though the dying are already dead.

 

[ChemGal]

One thing people don't seem to be considering is that allowing for assisted death with dignity might actually delay or prevent suicide.

Let me explain my reasoning. If I realize that I am becoming increasingly unable to perform the simple tasks of everyday living (for me it may be tying my shoes, brushing my teeth, sswallowing pills; for someone else it might be quite different), I probably will also realize that before long I might also be unable to successfully end my life (it's been pointed out in this threaed that suicide is no simple matter and is often painful, messy, and unsuccessful). So when I reach that point I might decide that I'd better get it over with while I still am able. But if I knew that at any time I had the option of requesting assistance I might put it off for the summer, and then to enjoy the fall leaves, and then until after Christmas, and then ... Well, winter is one of my favourite seasons and by then I may have discovered that I'm still managing ok.

I think this thread is too long
My point that way was more along with what Lastpointe says a few posts down from yours. But yes, there may be a delay or prevention of suicide, especially the less pleasants methods of going.

 

[Delightful Life]

Well from what I've observed, most people act as though the dying are already dead.

i could then wonder why Canadian Christianity hasn't dealt with that?

but then, really, taking your observation, how many people do you know to say most? i'm guessing less than 100, really...

so the fairest observation would be 'i don't know' i'd guess...

unless you live in a really cynical part of the country, where the dead and dying are being used as landfill for a new Trump tower? *waggles eyebrows*

and so it goes

 

[Delightful Life]

I think this is key, but we don't have all the answers for depression. The suicide rate for those who are in the position to help, (psychiatrists, psychologists, physicians etc..) is one of the highest for professionals. Hmmm.

yes, it could be because they have a higher comprehension of what is going on with themselves (esp. with the findings that depressed people are more realist than non-depressed -- "1. Depressive Realism: Non-depressed people tend to be more optimistic: they think they've performed better in tasks than they actually have and predict better performance than they actually achieve in the future (Moore & Fresco, 2012)." -- excerpted from http://www.spring.org.uk/2013/11/de...g-insights-into-a-misunderstood-condition.php)

but, as with all things where i don't know, the real answer is 'i don't know'

 

[Justme]

Well from what I've observed, most people act as though the dying are already dead.

I think some of that is ignorance and fear. Ignorance in the original definition - the not knowing so acting in a way that is unhelpful not in the malicious way that it has come to be known by.

I was very close to my Uncle but when he was diagnosed with ALS I didn't make a big effort to visit (he lived five hours away) or to call (it was hard to understand him on the phone). I now understand that you don't have to "know what to say" - just go and be. Talk about "it" if it comes up but feel free to talk about other things too. It was really interesting to see who came to visit when my Dad was dying and I think that it was mostly because people who truly loved him/liked him didn't know how to visit.

 

[revjohn]

Often they wait for permission from their loved ones to let them go too because they have accepted their fate.

This is hard stuff.

I remember sitting vigil with a family who were waiting for Dad to die. He had been moved to a larger room (to accommodate all family) politely referred to by hospital staff and we visiting clergy as "the departure lounge" and it was nearing Christmas.

Family wept, wailed, sobbed, hugged and such. It was clear that this gentleman was greatly beloved and that nobody was willing or eager for him to leave.

"Hold on Pop" they would say lovingly as they stroked his hair and kissed his cheek. For the most part I sat off to the side praying silently, engaging the family that needed comforting, praying over their loved one as they surrounded him on all sides. We laid our hands upon him and everyone wished him peace and comfort.

But no one would actually give him permission to go.

I watched the monitors, knew enough about the lines to know that things were progressing ever so slowly to a point where his body just had no more energy to keep even those faltering lines from failing.

We listend to him moan. It was his breathing which told me time was short.

And it went on for days. December 21 was my first visit I spent hours on the 22nd and 23rd taking breaks only to make sure the Christmas Eve and Christmas Day liturgies were prepared. I went in Christmas eve and to be candid I was hoping that would be it for the poor guy. And for the family. Who wants Christmas to be the anniversary of a loved one's death? Then Christmas day and I was hoping he would hold on for just a few hours more and feeling particularly selfish and not a little ghoulish about it. Christmas Day came and went and still he moaned and still he rasped.

Boxing Day was more of the same. The family wondered how long it would take and they were concerned about his pain. The nurses attending finally told us that they could give him no more without killing him and then the family really started to suffer because they knew Pop was in pain and Pop simply wouldn't go.

Were he not in pain his constitution and endurance would be something to marvel about.

Then I saw something I hadn't noticed before. Well heard more than saw actually. One daughter, wrapped around Pop's neck begging him to stay and fight for her. "Don't you love me?" she asked. That turned my heart cold. I have never seen such selfishness. But now aware of what was going on I was able to address it in a delicate manner. It took a little while to communicate the idea of giving Pop permission to go. Then it took the family some time to communicate with one daughter that Pop was suffering because she, in essence, was demanding it of him. Finally, with huge sobs she told her Dad that he didn't need to prove anything to her anymore. She loved him and she always would. More than that, she knew he loved her and that would never stop.

Five minutes later he breathed his last.

Five days he had been fighting to live for that daughter and she blinded by her grief had been begging him to fight for life that his body was slowly losing.

With her permission he gave up his fight and entered into rest. And the family, still grieving, began to focus on healing themselves.

That was the longest I have ever cared for individuals in the departure lounge. By the time they are moved to that room time is always short.

Story really doesn't end there.

The daughter seeing how quickly Pop passed after she gave him permission to go came to a very powerful understanding that it was her begging him to stay for the last five days which increased his pain and suffering. Love him as much as she did she soon came to believe she caused him the greatest amount of pain in his life and she felt a tremendous amount of shame because of it.

It took some time but we worked through that and her healing progressed after she was able to forgive herself.

I do not hold a theology which thinks that death is a friend or a blessing. I understand why others think of it that way. I still regard death as an enemy, something which should be resisted. I have also sat enough vigils in enough rooms to know that there comes a point when the battle ends and death finally gets its way. Hearts stop and breath leaves never to return. That isn't death doing us a favour. That is death doing what death does.

Yes. Pain ends. A gift to those who survive but not one given out of any particular love or mercy. Pain ends because there is no more life to milk pain from.

Again I do not hold a theology which thinks that death is a friend. I believe in the resurrection and I believe that resurrection gets the final word, not death.

So there is a tension between having the strength to fight for life and acknowledging that for some the battle is already over and that dead men or women walking should be permitted to lie down before falling. Death may win this round. A trumpet will yet sound and the grave will be forced to give up the dead. And Life will get the last and final word.

I will not condemn any who knowing such a fight lies ahead of them ask to skip those painful rounds.

Nor do I believe that God is so heartless that he would turn his back on any who seek to end the fight without experiencing all that bitterness. Even Christ in the Garden asks if there might be some other way and that the cup set in front of him be taken away. And that was someone who knew what we only believe. If he, with all his knowledge and the strength he possessed may waiver then what kind of righteousness demands that our lesser brothers and sisters may not?

We might not be able to forgive those who reach the point where giving up appears to be the best stewardship of what life is left.

I'm not convinced that our God's heart is so cold.

 

[Delightful Life]

It's true, some can even laugh in deaths face. Often they wait for permission from their loved ones to let them go too because they have accepted their fate.

i still remember being around mom in her hospital room on her last days--there we were, her family etc, walking wounded, and there she was, paper thin, being eaten alive to death, and she's smiling and cracking jokes...then began the process of starving her to death, because assisted suicide isn't legal here...

its too bad that sometimes it takes people dying for them to realize that life is a ride, a game, a vast play...

*cue Bill Hicks*

 

[Justme]

@revjohn that was beautifully written. I was captivated and moved. thank you.

 

[Mendalla]

Not sure if I told the story of Dad's death over in Room for All or not.

Basically, he was going rapidly downhill so we had arranged to meet at the nursing home to grill the doc about his condition and why he had deteriorated so rapidly. I was late for the meeting (401 traffic) but everyone was still there (my stepmother, my brothers, 1 brother's spouse) so we talked and visited with him, as much you could with someone who was basically comatose. Then stepmom wanted to go home for something and I wanted to get back to London so I offered to drive her (she gave up her license years ago due to eye problems). Dropped her off, headed to the power centre near her place for some lunch (there's a burger joint there where I took Dad once and quite like it). Just as I stopped and opened my car door, my brother called to let me know Dad had died after everyone but youngest brother left. Rather like he knew the meeting was over and it was time to go. So, called the boss and said I wouldn't be back, headed back to the home for a farewell, then to middle brother's place to start on the funeral plans.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

- Disability is defined by the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities and by WHO as an impairment up against disabling social, economic, and environmental barriers that are systemic. It is not simply impairment alone. Which is what this ruling does, is it equates it with illness and disease and neglects to recognize it as an a term applying to a protected group. And by doing that dismisses the social and environmental barriers that are part of the hardship and discrimination PWDs face apart from their impairments.

-the ruling itself is then a systemic barrier

- PWDs are equals before the law and have an equal right to legal representation and due political process in the decisions that affect them. The wording of this ruling negates that. Also, popular opinion over-rode the necessity of hearing PWDs on the whole as a distinct opinion on this issue (there were no polls done by the pollsters specifically with PWDs - everyone who is a PWD has a permanent impairment and is implicated in this decision).

-mental suffering is in itself an impairment, and when up against social and systemic barriers like poverty and poor access to services, a disability that is exacerbated by the barriers.

-PWDs rights groups fear that by accepting disability (as per the wording of the ruling) as a reason to die, PWDs will be seen as of less value when living - which was a systemic attitude they only recently overcame, as the lives of PWDs have always been seen as being of less value. PWDs are no strangers to discrimination and deadly systemic abuse and this ruling leaves them open to it again.