Euthanasia in Canada, Supreme Court Ruled this Morning

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

@Northwind I've been an on again off again smoker for years (gross I know - it began as a peer pressure thing. It's one of the things I regret most in my life). It's not the cravings (which is the addiction) that'll kill me it's the cigarettes. I can have cravings, even after months of quitting. Years. Maybe always from time to time. And they suck. I have a friend who quit for good 17 years ago and she still craves cigarettes sometimes. But the addiction to the cigarettes itself doesn't kill. It causes what can be extremely uncomfortable physical sensations but they are actually harmless. The cigarettes might kill me if I were to continue to smoke instead of resist the craving.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

...hmmm I wonder if addiction would then qualify as "irremediable mental pain"? Given that it can linger years after quitting. I hope not.

 

[Seeler]

What?!? So would you trust a mechanic to tell you when to stop fixing your car or is s/he not competent to do so because some imaginary technology may be invented in a decade or so that could breathe some life back into the car?

Bully for you that you CHOOSE to live with your depression. Suffering is personal as I described in my example of migraines. I'm glad you can control your depression but then you see it as a quirk and are content to have it. I see it as a huge ordeal, a disability and incredibly painful (Physically and mentally I might add) - I see what you are saying as incredibly patronizing and myopic - that somehow you know what is best for me because you have depression? Yet you don't think that an MP who is a quadriplegic can speak for people with physical handicaps because he is somehow not meeting some criteria but you with "mild" depression can make that decision for me who has more than just depression?! Would you be ok with me telling you to buck up and get a better paying job that if I had to walk with a cane I would do just that and make a bazillion dollars or that you should just try herbs or other such nonsense?!?

Just because a "cure" may be found in a decade does not mean that I want to/should/choose to suffer for that decade. I am so angry right now. I have no money problems, have a loving husband, really good friends, purpose in my life and psychologically I hurt - a lot. I see this as no different than a person who has terminal cancer and is suffering. I have listed at least once all the things I have tried. There is nothing more that can be tried other than perhaps implanting a pacemaker-type device in my brain to see if it can jolt me into thinking "right" but it's not something I really want to do - my Mom had brain trauma five years ago and it was minimal but it sucks pretty bad.

Right now the pain ebbs and flows and I ride it but if it comes back for months again (the highs hurt as much as the lows for me) - I'd really like to have the option to choose and to do so with dignity.

Thank you for sharing. I caan identify with you even though I do not face your struggles myself (I have my own). May God be with you.

 

[Seeler]

One thing people don't seem to be considering is that allowing for assisted death with dignity might actually delay or prevent suicide.

Let me explain my reasoning. If I realize that I am becoming increasingly unable to perform the simple tasks of everyday living (for me it may be tying my shoes, brushing my teeth, sswallowing pills; for someone else it might be quite different), I probably will also realize that before long I might also be unable to successfully end my life (it's been pointed out in this threaed that suicide is no simple matter and is often painful, messy, and unsuccessful). So when I reach that point I might decide that I'd better get it over with while I still am able. But if I knew that at any time I had the option of requesting assistance I might put it off for the summer, and then to enjoy the fall leaves, and then until after Christmas, and then ... Well, winter is one of my favourite seasons and by then I may have discovered that I'm still managing ok.

 

[Justme]

@Seeler I think you are right. I think too that people might ask and that will trigger a response to provide more support to that person so that they can continue on a a bit longer.

 

[Lastpointe]

I agree that right now we perhaps see suicides too early. People doing it before they are unable to and forced to linger.

I also think that when someone asks their physician it will trigger interventions to assist.

Depression is a good example. There are suicides due to depression. And in most cases, as in the couple I know, the friends, family all say "we had no idea things had gotten so bad......." Seldom do you hear. " john died today. We all knew he was depressed and expected it daily".

So the depressed person who asks for help dying may in fact get help lliving.


And sadly i feel like this discussion has covered these points many times in 62 pages.



I expect that very few people will use this ability once we get a law. I suspect that very few doctors will ever deal with this. Oncologists, palliative care specialists, mental health specialists that deal with difficult to manage cases....

The rest of us will continue to die as we always have. There will be patients who are "snowed" , ventilators turned off, patients declared brain dead and fluids withdrawn....... And a lucky few who die in their sleep

There will be no open season on the ill.

 

[Hermann]

i know; lots of different ways

like findings that magic mushrooms may help help with severe depression

Stanislav Grof & his Transpersonal Psychology

Even Buddhism *looks toward Arminius*



Yuppers, you can't save everyone (if one could even try -- that would be a totalitarian gov't). Everyone doesn't survive or have the same experiences.

Human life, our philosophies, our policies, our economies, etc are really more of a bell curve distribution.

All we can hope for, for any policy, is that it applies to most...

And sometimes all one can do is bear witness...

*laughing at the image of Kimmio dancing around the East End hooped up on scooby snacks*

There were a couple of Temples in ancient Greece dedicated to a healing deity, and the sick flocked there to be healed. And there were the "Theraputae" of ancient Alexandria who also had a healing Temple near the city of Alexandria. Those seeking to be healed had to have a ritual bath, to cleanse themselves physically and spiritually, and then were ushered into the Temple for their Temple Sleep or Healing Sleep. The healing deity was supposed to visit them while they slept, and heal them.

The Healing Temple had ducts trough which Healing Smoke, which was incense mixed with opium and/or hash smoke, was funneled into the temple while they slept. This Holy Smoke induced vivid dreams, hallucinations, visions, or mystical experiences which were interpreted to be the promised visit by the healing deity. The firm belief that they had actually been visited by the deity, together with the entrancing effects of the drug, caused a massive release of dopamine, which made everyone feel better and in some cases effected a partial or even full cure. The healing, however, was due entirely to the psychological effects of the psychedelic drugs, together with the faith in the efficacy of the healing method, and/or in the power of the healing deity to effect a cure. The reputation of these Healing Temples as successful centers of healing spread, which added to the placebo effect of this simple but effective healing method.


"Holy Smokes!" eh?

 

[Luce NDs]

What a mind-blow'n experience Hermann ... a difficult thing to let go of if you don't believe there is such a thing as a state of mind or a heaven free of thoughts that could depress.

Such blown considerations (ans, or annas) could be a pneumata in Rev Kings dreams ... his applied abstract? Some people don't believe in abstractions as they dwell only on absolutes and unchangeable thingy's ... that are infallible as the Pope ... until he stumbles from raised platforms ... ministers, priests and pastors may suffer this in ineffable pull Pits ... reversed Black Holes in reciprocal form as the impact rebounds ... really hard Ba'aLs are like billy ards ... creative thick heads! Yaks and bullochs may follow suite ... althought the thought of roasting may carry on in mental space ... something "that isn't" (manifest in de Lexis)!

 

[Hermann]

Our neolithic and even paleolithic ancestors are supposed to have used similar rituals and hallucinogenic drugs for healing. Such healing method appear to be as old as our species, and probably go back to the time when our species began to think logically and became analytically aware of their vulnerability and mortality. This crushing awareness led and still leads to much psychological suffering, which was healed psychologically by these ancient methods. Even purely physical illness can be made better with psychological healing because of its massive releases of dopamine. And even if one is not ill at all, one feels better after a release of dopamine, which many people achieve by something as simple as strongly satisfying action, satisfying their meta needs.

It seems that our brain has evolved its own little dope factory to protect us from the ill effects of being such a smart species. Seriously!

 

[Northwind]

Thanks for raising the idea that allowing for assisted suicide may actually save lives Seeler. That is something we don't always think about if we focus on the death part of assisted suicide. When people have the space to talk about suicide they can find the part of them that wants to live, and get support.

 

[revjohn]

That is the premise behind safeTALK. That talking about it actually helps to prevent it from happening.

https://www.livingworks.net/programs/safetalk/

Nobody is going to wake up one morning and say to themselves, "Today I am going to talk to my doctor about suicide." Given the typical length of time one might have to wait to see their family physician it may be something that they have thought about already for some time and thinking about it without another pair of eyes and ears and a different perspective appears to lead to a lot of people making such decisions and taking action without seeking the assistance of a physician.

 

[Waterfall]

I wonder what this conversation would look like if the majority of the participants in this thread were terminally ill?

 

[chansen]

I wonder what this conversation would look like if the majority of the participants in this thread were terminally ill?

Well, the atheists are. I thought the rest of you had a party to go to?

 

[Hermann]

I wonder what this conversation would look like if the majority of the participants in this thread were terminally ill?

They probably would want to know how to cope with the terminal aspect of their illness, or how to terminate the illness.

 

[Waterfall]

Well, the atheists are. I thought the rest of you had a party to go to?

Love it! My chuckle for the day....thanks.

 

[Hermann]

Well, the atheists are. I thought the rest of you had a party to go to?

What, the atheists are terminally ill? What's their illness? Lack of faith?

 

[Waterfall]

They probably would want to know how to cope with the terminal aspect of their illness, or how to terminate the illness.

Which is why I bring it up. I hope they are also being surveyed/asked in the next year in order to put more perspective on this ruling.

 

[Hermann]

I'm sure they will be heard.

 

[Waterfall]

I'm sure they will be heard.

I hope so Hermann, because as a whole our society is not very comfortable being around the dying. Maybe it's because it reminds us of our own mortality. Overall it's the terminally ill who have taught us how to treat their pain and manage it. It just seems to me they are a logical resource to turn to for guidance in this area also.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I agree that right now we perhaps see suicides too early. People doing it before they are unable to and forced to linger.

I also think that when someone asks their physician it will trigger interventions to assist.

Depression is a good example. There are suicides due to depression. And in most cases, as in the couple I know, the friends, family all say "we had no idea things had gotten so bad......." Seldom do you hear. " john died today. We all knew he was depressed and expected it daily".

So the depressed person who asks for help dying may in fact get help lliving.


And sadly i feel like this discussion has covered these points many times in 62 pages.



I expect that very few people will use this ability once we get a law. I suspect that very few doctors will ever deal with this. Oncologists, palliative care specialists, mental health specialists that deal with difficult to manage cases....

The rest of us will continue to die as we always have. There will be patients who are "snowed" , ventilators turned off, patients declared brain dead and fluids withdrawn....... And a lucky few who die in their sleep

There will be no open season on the ill.

There may not be open season but there had better be adequate, better than adequate safeguards to prevent what they have in Belgium! God, people assuming that the systems we put in place will adequately handle things when it really never does for people on the margins infuriates me!! You know how many people don't even have their own physician? I may not be trusting enough but some are too trusting that it'll work out okay with no injustices to people who should have been saved from suicide and no devaluing of the lives of people with disabilities.