estranged family members

Welcome to Wondercafe2!

A community where we discuss, share, and have some fun together. Join today and become a part of it!

Register Log in
Pr. Jae said:
Mendalla, a person can live and live well without expressing themselves sexually. Jesus went his whole life long without ever having sex. I myself lived a rich celibate life until I was 44, and would have contentedly continued to do so if it had been God's will. Surely you don't mean to suggest that gays and lesbians can't have as much resolve as I did.
Click to expand...

That was a choice you made, I suspect. Most of us do not make that choice and would not appreciate having that choice made for us. Gays and lesbians should have the same freedom to make that choice as anyone else rather than being told they must be celibate while others can choose whether or not to do so. So, I say again, if a gay or lesbian person is willing to make that choice to forego sexual and romantic relations, then they should go to your church. I suspect you'll find that very few do, esp. given how many other options there are that leave them their freedom to choose how to live their lives.
 
Mendalla said:
That was a choice you made, I suspect. Most of us do not make that choice and would not appreciate having that choice made for us. Gays and lesbians should have the same freedom to make that choice as anyone else rather than being told they must be celibate while others can choose whether or not to do so. So, I say again, if a gay or lesbian person is willing to make that choice to forego sexual and romantic relations, then they should go to your church. I suspect you'll find that very few do, esp. given how many other options there are that leave them their freedom to choose how to live their lives.
Click to expand...

Okay.

Biblically, everyone would choose to remain celebate until after marriage. I realize that may mean more to me than it does to you.
 
Pr. Jae said:
Okay.

Biblically, everyone would choose to remain celebate until after marriage. I realize that may mean more to me than it does to you.
Click to expand...

Given that marriage didn't mean back then what it does today (it was often arranged by families as a social or political tool), the reasons for remaining celibate before marriage in that context had less to do with sex or relationships and more to do with making sure nothing messed up the alliances being forged. In the modern world, I'd say that is not terribly applicable but, again, it comes down to choice. If someone is free to choose that "Biblical" path or not, then that's cool. What I don't want is the "Biblical" (or Quranic, or whatever) standard being imposed as the social norm.
 
Pr. Jae said:
Mendalla, a person can live and live well without expressing themselves sexually. Jesus went his whole life long without ever having sex. I myself lived a rich celibate life until I was 44, and would have contentedly continued to do so if it had been God's will. Surely you don't mean to suggest that gays and lesbians can't have as much resolve as I did.
Click to expand...
Respectfully Brother Jae, you might be providing us with a little too much information!
 
Lastpointe said:
I think that Jae is free to do as he sees fit.
We often seem to be brow beating him

As he has presented his brother to us, he is a married man who is living with another woman

Personally that is not fair to either woman.

If you no longer love your wife, then move out, move on, get a divorce which allows her to also move on, socially and legally.

To simply live with someone else is also not fair to that woman. It feels like a half hearted commitment

Of course we dont know the details either. But i wouldnt be terribly comfortable knowing that my brother was keeping two women on the hook either
Click to expand...

Lastpointe, there can be lots of reasons to not divorce, one being financial, another is just really really bad feelings from one side
My paternal grandfather and grandmother were separated for about 50 years. My grandmother HATED him. My grandfather didn't give a hoot about her.
My grandfather had a few different partners, one came into his life at about 79.
He decided, after living together for a while, that he wished to marry her, but, he & my grandmother had never divorced.
My grandmother refused the divorce coming from him.
Ultimately, she divorced him, and paid for it, citing adultery as the cause. Luckily, he didn't give a hoot, and accepted it.
During their relationship, while living together, we welcomed the woman who was his partner in our life. We also loved our grandmother.
We recognized that their inability to process this item should not block our relationships with them.
 
No Jae Biblically everyone did not remain celibate until arraignment. And biblical marriage often includes several concubines or other wives. Read the book of Esther. The King auditioned different women each night before choosing Esther to become his next Queen.
How's that for biblical dating! (Did you ever wonder what happened to the non-chosen women?)
 
Tabitha said:
No Jae Biblically everyone did not remain celibate until arraignment. And biblical marriage often includes several concubines or other wives. Read the book of Esther. The King auditioned different women each night before choosing Esther to become his next Queen.
How's that for biblical dating! (Did you ever wonder what happened to the non-chosen women?)
Click to expand...
Tabitha,
I am sure they just talked all night...
 
Pr. Jae said:
Yes, in this day and age if someone comes out as gay or bi or trans, that's fine. But for me to come out as having been celibate til marriage - shocking!

The "craziness" of saving sex til marriage - http://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org...and-the-craziness-of-saving-sex-for-marriage/
Click to expand...

I actually agree. Your decision should be recognized as valid, just as you should be recognizing the decisions of those who choose otherwise as valid. That also means you should not expect to be lionized or put on a pedestal for that decision. It is no more special or valid than any other. It's a values-based decision that isn't going to have earth-shattering consequences outside those in the relationship so it is really no one's business but the couples'.
 
Last edited:
Pinga said:
RitaTG, I don't know about you, but if someone "warmly welcomes me", but will not "warmly welcome my partner", then ...they have not warmly welcomed me.

@Pr. Jae is being precise in his responses to include his brother, but, not his partner.

So....RitaTG, I have a sense you have had that partial acceptance before, and would get the nuance that he is expressing.
Click to expand...
Small steps are often needed.
Contact has to be established first.
Partial acceptance is a painful thing but so often we the need to leave room and time for the journey.
That takes grace and the willingness to endure the suffering.
Give room for the welcome to grow.
 
Pinga said:
You cannot define your brother's partner, @Pr. Jae You can try, but, only your brother can define who his partner is.
Your failure to recognize who he names as partner, means that you are not welcoming him.

It is as simple as that.

You are welcoming and appreciating his ex-partner, though, I would say, you are not helping her , as the relationship has been finished for more than a week or two.

So, @RitaTG and others that read the thread....watch the semantics that are being played.
Click to expand...
The discussion illustrates the problem with language and viewpoint.
Jae has a long way to grow and the primitive black and white view will have to change and take on colour and nuance.
Treating his brother's present partner with kindness and dignity does not in any way suggest condoning of what happened in his brother's relationship with his former wife. Instead it is an expression of the love of Christ.
I do hope that the Baptist denomination is not in favour of shunning.
 
Seeler said:
Let me get this straight Jae. If the person your brother lives with and considers his partner attended your church she would receive a genuine welcome and full inclusion into your church family. My understanding is that you are a deacon in that church so I am presuming that you would be one of the ones welcoming her, along with your brother. Yet you cannot bring yourself to welcoming this person into your home or your heart. Wouldn't this be difficult for you? and for everyone involved?

I have a feeling that the welcome you would extend to gay or lesbian people would be similar to the 'hearty handshake of welcome' you would extend to this person.
Click to expand...
The "welcome" for LGBTQ persons I would expect would be shallow and tepid at best.
 
Pr. Jae said:
They'd receive a genuine welcome into two or three worship gatherings.



Yes, that's right. (Btw, I am both a Deacon and an Intern Pastor).



When I'm at a church gathering, I'm serving as a Deacon and an Intern Pastor. Part of fulfilling those roles is being warm and welcoming to one and all. When I'm on my own time, I make my own decisions concerning how to live well. I am "off the clock" so to speak. Part of that living well in this particular case is being loyal to my good friend by not acknowledging my brother's extramarital relationship.



Yes indeed.
Click to expand...
Kinda sounds like a double standard Jae.......
I don't know about you .... but as far as this is concerned I am never off the clock
 
Pr. Jae said:
Yes, I'm one of those chain-pullers.

However, in this particular case, I'm speaking from experience. Surprisingly, I know what goes on in my church - the church I've been a member of for roughly fifteen years. We warmly welcome everyone when they first come. However, in due time we practice church discipline. We don't want our parishioners to be led astray in their good Christian walks from newcomers who are engaged in lifestyles we believe to be sinful.
Click to expand...
Sounds like conform or we shun ......
Discipline .... Lets rewrite a well known Christian song a bit .... sing along if you know the tune
Make them more like me ...oh Jesus make them more like me
Give them a heart that obeys me ... yes make them obey me
 
Pr. Jae said:
Not necessarily.



We don't mind if people are gay. We don't tell them to recover. We will act in time to stop lifestyles we believe are abhorrent from affecting our parishioners.

And now how off topic are we.
Click to expand...
Not really off topic at all ..... I feel we are getting to the core of it....
 
Pinga said:
Wow, but what an interesting tangent t. Would be a good thread

Abhorrent lifestyles
Click to expand...
I am used to being abhorrent ......
I am used to being treated like a leper when I am not.....
I am used to the "not in my church" and "we are praying for you" attitudes and statements.
It hurts ... it hurts a lot ......
If this is really what God is about and what God is like then like Bishop Desmond Tutu ..... I do not want to go to that heaven.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top