Can Christianity & Capitalism co-exist?

[Mystic]

The foregoing quibbles are partly the reason for my sarcastic question, "Whose Christianity?" (among the countless versions)
The issue can be more usefully addressed by asking questions like these: Who were the poor in Jesus' day and how do their opportunities and hardships differ from the modern poor? Were they willing to help themselves, given the chance? For example, take prostitutes.
Back then, no prostitutes turned tricks to support their drug habit. Nor in my view did they turn tricks due to a poor work ethic. There was no social safety net back them like there is today. Husbands could divorce their wives on a whim for the crime of losing their youthful beauty. Evicted women with children needed some means of support and often had a negligible family support system. Such mitigating factors no doubt played some role in Jesus' compassion for them. What role should the modern difference in work ethic and opportunity play in our charity work? That is just one of many good questions for the capitalism vs. Christianity debate.

 

[Mystic]

I have posed the question, "Which Christianity?" (among its many other forms) and the question, "Does Max Weber's pioneering book imply that the question should be reversed to ask if modern Christianity is viable without capitalism. But precisely because of the issue of defining terms, including the parameters of "the evils of capitalism" and the Christian antidote, I think the topic is an excellent one for discussion. Most Christians don't have a well reasoned perspective on this issue because of all the terms that need to be defined and the implicit issues that need to be identified and addressed. And though there are many "Christianities," the relevance of any true Christianity to social justice is a realistic question to pursue.

 

[Jaebius]

No, not really. The attack on the moneychangers was because they were operating in the temple. He didn't go down to the marketplaces and do it to the vendors there which would have been a broader attack on commerce. To my eyes, it was not an attack on capitalism or even on the money changing business, but on bringing the material world of commerce into the spiritual world of the temple.

So, he would definitely come down on those who commercialize religion (holy water, $10 a vial, will heal any illness, our guarantee) but not necessarily on the capitalist system as a whole. He would certainly preach on the importance of putting God ahead of commerce and repeat the whole money can't get you into heaven speech, but I doubt he would be actively attacking capitalism outside of where it impinged on religion.

Makes me wonder what Jesus must think of some churches who operate such things on church property as dinners, rummage sales, strawberry teas, Christmas tree sales, etc. all for the purpose of gathering loot.

 

[Delightful Life]

There's a big problem out there
That not every country believes in a human being's inalienable rights
So we get things happening (thanks to powerful statisms) like the Aral Sea being destroyed, turned into a toxic waste dump by Soviet Russia, the worst example of Statism in the world (and that, I think, is what caused all the deaths--not atheism, but that level of Statism...)
But we have this problem that the world is getting smaller, countries can no longer act by themselves completely, so we have this anarchy of different governing styles, of economies, clashing with each other...and most of the world's countries are ostensibly operating under the Treaty of Westphalia, a BS where a country's sovereignty is recognized as fundamental...
So one cannot take these statist, authoritarian, totalitarian regimes and smack them and go 'BEHAVE!!! you're destroying your environment, poisoning your peoples, polluting your air...STOP IT'

That's the paradox that I don't know the answer to...but that people are trying to solve...

 

[Delightful Life]

 

[revsdd]

Makes me wonder what Jesus must think of some churches who operate such things on church property as dinners, rummage sales, strawberry teas, Christmas tree sales, etc. all for the purpose of gathering loot.

Jesus' concern seemed not to have been that there were people selling animals for sacrifice and moneychangers, etc. at the temple. People needed moneychangers. The farflung corners of the Roman Empire used different forms of currency, so the money had to be changed to local currency once in Jerusalem. People needed to purchase animals for sacrifice because if they had journeyed a long way to get to Jerusalem they likely hadn't brought any animals with them. Jesus would have understood that. What Jesus objected to seems to have been that the moneychagers and those selling the animals were cheating their customers by ripping them off on the exchange rate and charging ridiculously high prices for the animals. Thus, the temple had become, in Jesus' words, "a den of thieves." As long as people weren't being ripped off I don't think Jesus would particularly object in principle to the things you mention - especially if they furthered the ministry of the church.

 

[Waterfall]

Or it was because God and Jesus don't believe in sacrifices.

 

[Seeler]

Jae - you would have been happy with the local Baptist church here. When I first got to know them when I moved into the neighbourhood, their church was a lively place. They held breakfasts and bake sales and rummage sales and put on concerts as fund raisers. Then their pastor retired and they called a new one. One of the first changes he made was to let it be known that hereafter they would be expected to support the church solely by tithes and offerings - no fund raising in the name of the church. The congregation meekly obeyed, although my neighbour told me how sad it made her - she was a stay-at-home mom, and she felt that this was a way she had contributed along with her husband giving a portion of his salary. The women got around the pastor's wishes but holding rummage sales in someone's garage and driveway, and not advertising it as being for the church - except to mention it in conversation.
That pastor is gone now, and I notice that the church has gradually reverted to fund-raising on their own property.

 

[revsdd]

Or it was because God and Jesus don't believe in sacrifices.

One would have thought that Jesus would have said that explicitly rather than making an accusation of dishonesty if that were his meaning.

 

[Waterfall]

One would have thought that Jesus would have said that explicitly rather than making an accusation of dishonesty if that were his meaning.

Was Jesus not quoting Jeremiah 7:1-11?

 

[revsdd]

Was Jesus not quoting Jeremiah 7:1-11?

Perhaps not quoting, but it certainly seems to be an allusion. So? The passage in Jeremiah is not a repudiation of sacrifices - it's a repudiation of both dishonesty and hypocrisy. Exactly what Jesus was repudiating at the temple.

 

[Mendalla]

What Jesus objected to seems to have been that the moneychagers and those selling the animals were cheating their customers by ripping them off on the exchange rate and charging ridiculously high prices for the animals. Thus, the temple had become, in Jesus' words, "a den of thieves." As long as people weren't being ripped off I don't think Jesus would particularly object in principle to the things you mention - especially if they furthered the ministry of the church.

Is that clear in the scripture (I don't know the verse references offhand) or is that an interpretation?

 

[revsdd]

Is that clear in the scripture (I don't know the verse references offhand) or is that an interpretation?

It's almost always interpretation. We see that all the time here. There are two stories of Jesus "cleansing the temple."

Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. “It is written,” he said to them, “‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’ but you are making it ‘a den of robbers.’”

That seems to make clear that in that instance the concern was dishonesty.

It's true that Jesus seems concerned about actual selling in the temple area in the other (much earlier) story, from John 2:

When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the temple courts he found people selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!” His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.”

Here, the concern is over turning the temple into a market. So, it's a matter of choice as to which you want to emphasize, although it doesn't either/or. It could be both/and.

Clearly, though, in neither passage is Jesus condemning the practice of animal sacrifice.

In reference to Jae's original point, it should always be remembered that a "church" for Christians is not the same thing as the "temple" was for Jews. It doesn't represent the same thing, nor does it serve the same purpose. There is nothing even remotely analogous to the temple for Christians. The closest might be the role of the Vatican for Roman Catholics, but it's still not the same, and the Vatican doesn't play a particularly significant role outside Roman Catholicism.

 

[RitaTG]

Actually, in my opinion, the answer to the question is rather straightforward.
Christianity and Capitalism do co-exist and have done so for centuries.
I would contend that each in their own right are religions and have co-existed and mingled over time and will continue to do so.
Rancid forms of both have contaminated society and made society ill.

 

[unsafe]

For me it is all about Stewardship of what is God's in the first place ------many parables on finances showing what God does and does not approve of --so Worldly Capitalism and True Christians will never co-exist in harmony and peace-- just my opinion ------this video shows this very thing ------

Jesus Chases The Money Changers Out of The Temple

 

[RitaTG]

For me it is all about Stewardship of what is God's in the first place ------many parables on finances showing what God does and does not approve of --so Worldly Capitalism and True Christians will never co-exist in harmony and peace-- just my opinion ------this video shows this very thing ------

Jesus Chases The Money Changers Out of The Temple

I don't agree unsafe .....
What Jesus did in the temple he never did in the marketplace.
In my opinion what he did in the temple was all about the temple as a place of worship rather than being a place of commerce.
To use this story and extrapolate to applying it to capitalism in general is taking the story far beyond its bounds.

 

[unsafe]

Hi RitaTG

We just think and see things differently -----is all ----Worldly Capital driven by self desires no matter where it is exchanged in the market place or wherever is not well received by God in my opinion ------All money is God's not man's ------we are just stewards of God's money ------greed and power is what money in this world means and the video shows that ---it is human desire driven so in my view it is at war with what God made money for ---to serve His purpose not our purpose ------God is all about giving out Capital -- not storing up Capital --- again just my thoughts on this -------Jesus talks more about money than He does Heaven or Hell -----pretty important subject I would say -------


Luke 19:11-27 NASB - Parable of Money Usage

Matthew 25:14-30 - The Parable of the Bags of Gold -

How many times does the Bible talk about money?

Did you know money is mentioned in the Bible over800 times? God must be pretty serious about this subject to talk about it that much. In fact, Jesus says in Luke 16:11, "So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches?"

Peace to you

 

[revsdd]

I don't agree unsafe .....
What Jesus did in the temple he never did in the marketplace.
In my opinion what he did in the temple was all about the temple as a place of worship rather than being a place of commerce.
To use this story and extrapolate to applying it to capitalism in general is taking the story far beyond its bounds.

For Jews in Jesus' day the temple was far more than just a place of worship. It was literally the place where one encountered God - thus, "my Father's house" meant in a very literal sense.

 

[RitaTG]

...and in all of

Hi RitaTG

We just think and see things differently -----is all ----Worldly Capital driven by self desires no matter where it is exchanged in the market place or wherever is not well received by God in my opinion ------All money is God's not man's ------we are just stewards of God's money ------greed and power is what money in this world means and the video shows that ---it is human desire driven so in my view it is at war with what God made money for ---to serve His purpose not our purpose ------God is all about giving out Capital -- not storing up Capital --- again just my thoughts on this -------Jesus talks more about money than He does Heaven or Hell -----pretty important subject I would say -------


Luke 19:11-27 NASB - Parable of Money Usage

Matthew 25:14-30 - The Parable of the Bags of Gold -

How many times does the Bible talk about money?

Did you know money is mentioned in the Bible over800 times? God must be pretty serious about this subject to talk about it that much. In fact, Jesus says in Luke 16:11, "So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches?"

Peace to you

...and in all of this unsafe ... never once is capitalism itself denounced.
Rather the rancid abuse of capitalism is denounced as it should be.
Now what about rancid beliefs? ... are they also not denounced?
We would not throw out spirituality because of abuse and neither is there a biblical case to throw out capitalism.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Well, we have to have some kind of economic system, agreed. However, capitalism, as we have known it thus far, absolutely requires limitless growth. You see how badly it behaves when the GDP doesn't keep on expanding, even marginally.

We need an economic system that inherently doesn't leave anyone out.