Can Christianity & Capitalism co-exist?

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"Capitalism is the worst economic system with the exception of all others tried." chansen

The earth is very old. On every continent indigenous people have lived for thousands of generations. Each with a distinct and viable "economy" rooted in evolutionary patterns.

About 500 hundred years ago "capitalism" took root and began its global expansion. First by colonizing indigenous people where they were encountered. Then by exploiting the lands in which those people lived from time immemorial. Now in its last stages, capitalism has reached epidemic proportions placing the biosphere and all its constituents in radical jeopardy.

Capitalism + Calvinism = Hubris -> Nemesis

George
 
Is the nemesis ... out there ... an eternal BH thingy? Some say this is indeterminate from within the mortal system due to limitations ... a far out etude of poly dimensional nature @GeoFee ?

Perhaps some patience is needed for healing of God's ole ... the rapturous a' void antes? David rippled to ID causing a stir in Michael ... Saul's delight? Avarice and aversion is born ... and thus creative opposition ...
 
No body is being blamed. The blame game is pointless.

What we are pressing for is a dedicated critical examination of the ideas by which our planet is being vexed to the point of death.

I am always pleased to hear what John has to say and would welcome his engagement.

George
 
No body is being blamed. The blame game is pointless.

What we are pressing for is a dedicated critical examination of the ideas by which our planet is being vexed to the point of death.

I am always pleased to hear what John has to say and would welcome his engagement.

George

Okay, may I went a bit far with "blamed", but your equation includes Calvinism as a factor leading to hubris and I don't see why it fits any moreso than any other Christian theology. To my eye, "Capitalism + Christianity = Hubris" in many cases. Some of the worst offenders are elements of the US evangelical movement and they are mostly sola fides, not sola gratia.
 
"Capitalism is the worst economic system with the exception of all others tried." chansen

The earth is very old. On every continent indigenous people have lived for thousands of generations. Each with a distinct and viable "economy" rooted in evolutionary patterns.

About 500 hundred years ago "capitalism" took root and began its global expansion. First by colonizing indigenous people where they were encountered. Then by exploiting the lands in which those people lived from time immemorial. Now in its last stages, capitalism has reached epidemic proportions placing the biosphere and all its constituents in radical jeopardy.

Capitalism + Calvinism = Hubris -> Nemesis

George

Another position. Have you read any of Daniel Quinn's work? He posits that there are two 'tribes' worldwide - Leavers and Takers. We are the Takers, of course. Small pockets of Leavers exist all over the world, although we're trying hard to turn them all into Takers.

And capitalism may suck, but in theory, it's just a common medium (currency) by which to exchange goods and labour. Doesn't make a lot of sense in a civilization if the doctor has to stock the shelves in the grocery store in order to get food. Economies can be, and are, tweaked to suit the needs of the moment; tis harder with global corporations, but not impossible. Free trade agreements can also have very evil, unanticipated results.
 
"....includes Calvinism as a factor leading to hubris and I don't see why it fits any more so than any other Christian theology..." Mendalla

I first noticed the connection of Calvinism with capitalism in Melville's epic "Moby Dick". This is the story of Puritan sailors seeking whale oil in the interest of positive return on shareholder investments. My reading of the story notices the hubris animating Captain Ahab which eventuates in his own death, dragged into the depths by the whale, and the loss of ship and crew to those same depths. Only Ishmael rises from the water, buoyed by a casket carved by the pagan Queequeg.

I also connect Calvinism with capitalism in light of my own experience as a child raised in a Dutch Calvinist milieu. By puberty it was quite clear to me that what the folk professed as Christians was deeply compromised by what they practiced; which was in essence liberal, democratic capitalism. Without the Calvinist connection the same could be said of liberal institutions of religion like the United Church. Profession is contradicted by practice.

This said, I am quite content to speak, as is suggested above, in the more general terms of Christianity compromised by its embrace and endorsement of capitalism; whether explicit or implicit.

George

If curious, here is a bit from George Grant on Calvinism and the modern period (p.77)
https://books.google.ca/books?id=gSmeg-YcMwMC&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75&dq=George Grant "American Morality"&source=bl&ots=jgVHxFGb_E&sig=SjBwGku134XpBERkDjcGsJTil_U&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi36r--wJHMAhXD9h4KHQlMBnQQ6AEIODAI#v=onepage&q=George Grant "American Morality"&f=false
 
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Profession is contradicted by practice.

Does incarnate being present the same appearance ... something that isn't?
 
Santa you be incarnationsal an yet uncensored? What eastly are you incarnationing?

D you the conventional dictionary meaning of incarnate ... ink*are*Nate ... or the darkness is a wise place to regress to ... as the Shadow knows ... you can see it in the silhouette ... and other protrusions and projections ... NOS tra damn us?
 
D you the conventional dictionary meaning of incarnate ... ink*are*Nate ... or the darkness is a wise place to regress to ... as the Shadow knows ... you can see it in the silhouette ... and other protrusions and projections ... NOS tra damn us?
Nontrade Danica - now Derek wack a fraud, a tarlatan, a Busy WatHIVand. God cujest for aOder dread. What a facer.
 
Got a puppy at home. Well behaved. Doesn't run around while folk converse in pursuit of insight and encouragement. Of course we enjoy play time, just not all the time. Respect is the key to balance.

George
 
Geo,

What kind of breed ... or just a mongrel like English ... source 'd from everywhere? Literal source-eerie ... that's word for yah as idealism ... ag od' thingy? Peculiar in real sense as compared to virtues? Still a common dag maw ...

All one really kneads is a bit of emotion well matched with a bit of working soul ... allows balance ... a bit of dot'r to push, rub and caress ... like mental bread? in a manna of blurting out dark goings on as discrete-ism? Physical relations are sacredly denied ... the conspiracy of elimination? Are many things in temporal modes indiscrete ... as often found under the cover of church ... /\?

Yesterday on Family Feud ... my wife said the question was: "where most sins were found" ... high on the social answers was the place of church ... as a good place to culture a masque! Allowed the primal popes to find a place for a confessional meant to raise funds ... business as usual, religiously speaking, it still goes on? Real people find it hard to alter in coursETS ... singularly we bare our souls in nether territory ... inde afth NDs ... a never land ... hermeneutic as follows? Carried right on into the KKK ...
 
Steve: ... I did say that God "commanded" the sacrifices - in the sense of setting down the rules and rituals for how, when and by whom the sacrifices were to be made. Were sacrifices already happening? Of course they were. In the context of the narrative, they date back, as I noted, to the story of Cain and Abel, where God is said to have approved of animal sacrifice. Were the Hebrews continuing a "pre-Hebrew" practice? Absolutely.

Divine revelation does not negate the prevailing culture; rather, it makes concessions to that culture to express divine priorities. We can't claim that God prefers a system of blood sacrifice. God concedes the perceived Israelite need for such a system and reveals the way in which that system must express obedience and spiritual transformation. God does not command Cain or Abel to offer sacrifice. The text implies that this is their decision. We are not told why God prefers Abel's sacrifice. As the Harper-Collins Bible note points out, Abel offered the firstfruits of his flock, but Cain offered fruit, but not firstfruit. So the issue seems to be whether the sacrifice offered is an afterthought or a top priority giving God first place in their lives.

My point is that sacrifice needs to be understood in the context of progressive revelation. The destruction of the Jerusalem Temple coincides with a new era in which rabbinic leadership is culturally ready to abandon the sacrifice system and recreate Judaism in way that renders sacrifice obsolete. Similarly, Christians come to understand Jesus' death as the sacrifice to end all sacrifices.

Steve: There's no specific reference in Jesus' teaching to the practices of the surrounding cultures on divorce. This was an example of a concession by God based on the hardness of the people's hearts as Jesus pointed out. There's no specific references to the surrounding culture - although I concede that it may be inferred.

In fact, Jesus weighs in on the dispute between the Hillel versus Shammai rabbinic schools on the possibility and grounds for divorce. In my view, Jesus' concern is how one prevailing view oppresses discarded women. Jesus overules Moses' divine authority on this subject on the grounds that the Israelites hearts were "hardened." As I've said, Jesus means that the Israelite men wanted total freedom to divorce for almost any convenient reason and that privilege was an unfortunate consequence of how patriarchal culture oppressed women. Here's the crucial point: Jesus implies that Moses does not speak for God's will on this matter; he speaks by way of concession, and Yahweh does not counteract him.
 
"== Economic Recovery ==
This economic recovery has lasted longer, without even a small recession, than all but one stretch since WWII, prompting some economics sages like John Mauldin to caution the next president - whoever - to expect a recession in his or her first term.

Hm. Maybe but can one say "this time is different"? Those are famously fatal words. But there truly are some differences. In fact we never had a recovery this slow before, dragged by a Congress that refused to spend on badly needed infrastructure repairs, because that would create high-velocity money in worker pockets, and that in turn would have sped the recovery and helped democrats.

But this month's labor stats show it happened anyway. Steady, steady job growth and now those long delayed wage increases. Obstruction can only do so much. And hence the question: might there be a silver lining to this slowness? Could it mean that the usual recession just got smeared into the more gradual slope of this slowly improving economy?

Certainly psychological factors fit this model, with a US public deliberately talked into gloom, not just by Fox & pals but also sourpusses on the left. And hence no "ebullience penalty" this time. Except for an equities bubble, there's been no overshoot for a recession to correct. Just hardworking folks pushing it all forward.

Well well. Just a theory. No doubt there are forces trying to start that recession in time for the election... amid a myriad types of desperate cheating. Stay wary. Nurse a little optimism. Stay tuned.

== Psychological factors? Or reality? ==
In a different newsletter, John Mauldinshows - yet again - what U.S. conservatism could be, if it decided to argue for market enterprise from a position of, well, sanity. The following figures that I clipped from that newsletter show what any sensible person has to understand... and the part of Bernie Sanders's riff that is blatantly and wholly and completelyright...

... that wealth disparities in the United States have skyrocketed to a degree that no rationalization, no theory or incantation, can possibly justify anymore.

These charts - from a conservative capitalist economist - are clear, vivid and entirely self-explanatory. They prove that not only America but flat-open-fair-competitive -creativecapitalism has been betrayed, and both desperately need a refresh, lest we spiral toward the other possibility. One that was well described by the famous historians Will and Ariel Durant, in The Lessons of History.

"…the unstable equilibrium generates a critical situation,
which history has diversely met by legislation redistributing wealth
or by revolution distributing poverty.”


--excerpted from "The economic angle to electoral madness" by David Brin

"
Smith used the term “Invisible Hand” just once in The Wealth of Nations and only once in his earlier work, The Theory of Moral Sentiments. The historian Emma Rothschild, in her book on Smith and the Marquis de Condorcet, two towering Enlightenment scholars, argues that Smith was more ironic than serious about the Invisible Hand, always assuming an active role for government in creating the rules and regulations of society and fully conscious of the need for compassion and community, which he outlined rather beautifully in The Theory of Moral Sentiments.

But Smith took the Invisible Hand very seriously, I’d argue, even as he assumed a large role for government. He was a complex thinker, breaking new ground in many areas, and too much time has been spent trying to make his abundant ideas consistent with one another. He could believe in limiting government in some ways but expanding it in others. Even though he explicitly mentioned the Invisible Hand only once in The Wealth of Nations, elsewhere
in his masterpiece he addressed it at length.

Smith was formally a moral philosopher at the University of Edinburgh, and he had come to believe that individuals could often make their own decisions without help from a higher authority, a staple idea of the Enlightenment that was rapidly gaining cultural acceptance. A market undirected by government fit this philosophical disposition very well. Smith was determined to show that such self-oriented behavior on the part of individuals led to a common good. “Man has almost constant occasion for the help of his brethren,” he famously wrote, “and it is in vain for him to expect it from their benevolence only. He will be more likely to prevail if he can interest their self-love.” And then follows his most quoted line: “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages.”

Emma Rothschild, appropriately skeptical of the Invisible Hand, emphasizes its “loveliness.” To many, she observes, it is “aesthetically delightful.” Rothschild notes that for the Nobel laureate Kenneth Arrow and his highly regarded coauthor Frank Hahn the Invisible Hand was “poetic.” Arrow and Hahn wrote that it is “surely the most important contribution of economic thought.” Another Nobel laureate, James Tobin, called it “one of the great ideas of history and one of the most influential.” The American conservative philosopher Robert Nozick is impressed by how it finds an “overall pattern or design” out of a seeming jumble of decisions."
--excerpted from "
"How Adam Smith’s Invisible Hand Was Corrupted by Laissez-Faire Economics" by Jeff Madrick
 
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