Bullying

[Northwind]

2. CG and NW, at a time when they were experiencing pain and anger from events in their lives, entered a discussion which seemed to include misunderstandings and misdirected anger leading to both feeling harassed or bullied by the other. There might be some previous history in their relationship that I do not know. I do know that I was confused by their comments to each other as I did not see how their responses to each other's comments were actually responses to those particular comments. They both seem to feel hurt and angry, partly with each other and partly with themselves for allowing the conflict to escalate. I believe they need to begin with forgiving themselves for allowing the bad stuff in their lives to erupt in creating the conflict. I hope that they are able to take a time out from each other that is long enough for the good relationship they had to subdue any bad feelings they currently hold and one of them may need more time than the other.

Thanks for this Jim. Your assessment is probably fairly accurate. I'm not sure about the history part. I was confused as well. I will not be engaging further because our history shows it never ends well. Any time we try to sort things out it gets worse. I suspect part of the problem is our different ways of thinking and communicating. To clarify, I'm including the ways we process information when we're interacting. Of course the layers of hurt this conflict has caused doesn't help. I have a different perspective and pray for strength to not respond the next time things bubble up.

 

[JayneWonders]

Power. Bullying. Harassment. Respect. Disrespect. Self defense. Self justification. Misunderstanding. Intent. Effects. Misplaced pain and anger.

These are key elements in all the discussions in this thread. I offer the following observations which might not be true. Please offer what you believe are corrections to my observations.
1. Chansen posted one or more posts which led to some other people feeling offended. Chansen felt bullied by Aaron. The outcomes included the mods at the time coercing chansen to make an apology he did not want to make, chansen feeling violated or otherwise harmed by that process and, chansen demanding an apology for being forced to make the apology. Chansen continues demanding an apology and feeling disrespected by a lack of helpful response. Some members of this forum believe he should receive an apology. One member who may have contributed to the decision by the mods at the time is deflecting any responsibility for that decision. I believe that member is showing disrespect in not declaring that person's view on whether or not an apology should be made to chansen.

I have received confirmation from @jimkenney12 that the one member that he is referring to is me.

Minor note: don't be vague, please. If you mean me, use Jaynewonders and tag me. It sure would help me. I wasn't sure and sought clarification but that took time.

I am happy to respond to your queries but between being busy with the Northwind /chemgal saga , related conversations and a very busy time at work, I am running on empty. I received less than 4 hrs sleep last night. A sleep deprived response and resultant back and forths would not good.

There are others who could likely provide a detailed response re timeline for wondercafe2

 

[paradox3]

I have received confirmation from @jimkenney12 that the one member that he is referring to is me.

Minor note: don't be vague, please. If you mean me, use Jaynewonders and tag me. It sure would help me. I wasn't sure and sought clarification but that took time.

Thanks for your openness about this. Your response will be helpful to the moderators and to @chansen.

 

[Carolla]

Power. Bullying. Harassment. Respect. Disrespect. Self defense. Self justification. Misunderstanding. Intent. Effects. Misplaced pain and anger.

These are key elements in all the discussions in this thread. I offer the following observations which might not be true. Please offer what you believe are corrections to my observations.
1. Chansen posted one or more posts which led to some other people feeling offended. Chansen felt bullied by Aaron. The outcomes included the mods at the time coercing chansen to make an apology he did not want to make, chansen feeling violated or otherwise harmed by that process and, chansen demanding an apology for being forced to make the apology. Chansen continues demanding an apology and feeling disrespected by a lack of helpful response. Some members of this forum believe he should receive an apology. One member who may have contributed to the decision by the mods at the time is deflecting any responsibility for that decision. I believe that member is showing disrespect in not declaring that person's view on whether or not an apology should be made to chansen.

2. CG and NW, at a time when they were experiencing pain and anger from events in their lives, entered a discussion which seemed to include misunderstandings and misdirected anger leading to both feeling harassed or bullied by the other. There might be some previous history in their relationship that I do not know. I do know that I was confused by their comments to each other as I did not see how their responses to each other's comments were actually responses to those particular comments. They both seem to feel hurt and angry, partly with each other and partly with themselves for allowing the conflict to escalate. I believe they need to begin with forgiving themselves for allowing the bad stuff in their lives to erupt in creating the conflict. I hope that they are able to take a time out from each other that is long enough for the good relationship they had to subdue any bad feelings they currently hold and one of them may need more time than the other.
3. I believe we need a bullying policy that includes a ban on requiring anyone to apologize. If someone is offended by a post and report that to the mods, they need to clearly explain why they are offended. Preferably, they would be expected to private message the person making the post before reporting to the mods.

I have been following along, mostly silently, for reasons I have previously posted. I will say that when the situation with chansen arose in 2014 - yes it's that many years ago - FIVE moderators were on the team that responded. These were people selected by this community and entrusted as volunteers with responding to reported posts with regard to breaches of the agreed upon Code of Conduct. Five people from varying backgrounds with varying perspectives and life experiences who said yes when this community asked them to volunteer. Of those five, I am the only person remaining here with you today.

In 2014 chansen, Mendalla & Pinga were in Admin roles. It was at that time that confidential means was set up for moderators ONLY to discuss complaints. Admins were not able to access that information. Moderators spent an inordinate amount of time coming to consensus and carefully crafting & communicating any resolutions. There was always private communication with those involved in a complaint in an effort to resolve situations. I will not comment on details of any deliberation or the complaints - suffice to say that the situations were often far more complex than perhaps is imagined.

Regarding the suggestion to develop a bullying policy in Code of Conduct. I do not think this is necessary. The first 5 items of the present Code of Conduct outline behaviours that are common in situations of bullying. How vigorously the community wishes those to be enforced may be a discussion - there has generally been a very light hand taken to moderation on this forum and it has worked well for the most part. However I do recently observe an increase in frequency of behavior here that is not in keeping with the Code of Conduct and I find that very troubling.

I assume that confidential moderator communication continues. I am not sure how many moderators are currently involved - 3? 4? If a complaint made involves a moderator breaching Code of Conduct I view that as quite serious. I would support a standard practice of promptly removing the moderator privileges until the complaint is resolved, and stating (not sure where such practices are now indicated) that this is our standard practice (ie not stating publicly any time it may occur). If a removal from any position of responsibility within the Council (ie moderator or admin) is deemed necessary, then I would see a community notice of this decision as appropriate, without need to state reasons or details. This would be consistent with the practice of announcements of thread bans, suspensions, site bans. Perhaps it is already stated somewhere - not sure.

 

[Luce NDs]

When it comes down to it; folk like activity or peace? Thus the sense of Eris as dissonance in the darkness of soul ...

Imagine black storms on the horizon of consciousness ... thus passionate phobias are misinterpreted because of folk not wishing to go there ...

Ad abstract seems to be passed off as dark and mysterious ...

 

[chansen]

Five people are still capable of collectively making a mistake. A forced, insincere apology is generally a mistake. I am thankful that a few people besides myself are on board with this concept, because I thought it was just me for a long time.

If the council is simply going to dig its heels in once again and insist nothing wrong was done back then, at least get the ban over with. This takes up an inordinate amount of my idle thoughts and no matter how sick some of you are with it, I'm more so.

 

[paradox3]

Do we have light moderation here? I am really not sure. There have been a few occasions where I found it rather heavy handed. But only a few.

Often when I have Reported something I have said "Please review" because I am not sure if I am overreacting. I am happy to have someone else make the call.

I agree that being a Mod must be a tough job. I also understand that situations can be more complex than they first appear.

There is a Reddit sub about home decorating where folks post pictures of their abodes. There are rules about dogs and cats appearing in the shots. Seriously. Pets are allowed to occupy only a certain percentage of the space in the photograph.

Too much focus on the pet and the mods remove the whole post.

 

[Northwind]

Too much focus on the pet and the mods remove the whole post

I'm in a FB knitting group and a couple photography groups that have similar rules. Heck even a person with their back turned to the camera at a distance can get a post denied.

I've seen where the code of conduct has been breached with apparently nothing done. That would apply to some of my behaviour.

I wonder how my conflict situation would have progressed if there had been earlier intervention. I'm not suggesting it was up to mods to fix it for the record, nor am I suggesting in any way that it is there fault that it progressed as it did. I'm just percolating and reflecting here. One possible intervention which has been mentioned above is for someone to reach out and check to see if the two parties involved are okay. A variation of what was discussed upthread somewhere

 

[Luce NDs]

Remember ... all that counts is protocol beyond that all is the power of hubris ... its the rule most follow on the Rhode of life!

Then if you know that once Rhode was a word for rose ... you might see how it flowers ... thus Eros are put down as they take way your thoughts to a subtle place ... numb Isis ...

Recall that the archer in one form or another can leave you near dead ... more or less capricious? Emotions hurt ... be stunned for a bit ...

 

[Delightful Life]

Wow, look what happens when you go away for a while!

Same old thing.

Holy Christ on a cracker m'man *hug*
How the wholly crazy world are you? I missed your wit and humour.

Hope you have been keeping well
(feel free to take this WM --don't want to distoib things here tooo muchly)

 

[paradox3]

I am happy to respond to your queries but between being busy with the Northwind /chemgal saga , related conversations and a very busy time at work, I am running on empty. I received less than 4 hrs sleep last night. A sleep deprived response and resultant back and forths would not good

Still awaiting a response here over 24 hours later. Just saying.

 

[chansen]

The absolutely insane thing is, the apology was mostly (I think) about me abusing my admin privileges. What did I do to abuse them? I didn't ban someone without cause. I didn't delete any posts or threads. In the thread I was responding in, a moderator beat my post by a minute or two and locked the thread. My admin account pushed my post through the lock. I was never alerted that it was locked.

THAT was my big admin privilege abuse. That must have been the worst admin abuse this place has ever seen, as no one else has been made to apologize for anything else.

I never touched Aaron's account. I never touched one of Aaron's posts. I never prevented Aaron from responding anywhere on the site. A post of mine went through a lock. That was the crime.

There was a second reason: I brought a grievance from FB to WC2. If you search WC2 for "facebook", you can find people complaining about that group here for other reasons. The identity if one of the complainers is particularly ironic.

 

[Northwind]

When I overstepped my mod privileges I received an appropriate consequence.

 

[JayneWonders]

Still awaiting a response here over 24 hours later. Just saying.

Right, let me be clear.

I checked in with @jimkenney12 who confirmed no rush to respond. The sense was that this weekend would be fine. I can't dash it off in 5 min and wish to give it the attention it deserves

I am working full time right now with multiple commitments. I took a break to pop in, but am heading back to work

I have indicated before, my role here is a volunteer

I would appreciate fair consideration. As I said, I was running on very little sleep

If there is a deadline that I have missed, then please tell me what it is

 

[paradox3]

Right, let me be clear.

I checked in with @jimkenney12 who confirmed no rush to respond. The sense was that this weekend would be fine. I can't dash it off in 5 min and wish to give it the attention it deserves

I am working full time right now with multiple commitments. I took a break to pop in, but am heading back to work

I have indicated before, my role here is a volunteer

I would appreciate fair consideration. As I said, I was running on very little sleep

If there is a deadline that I have missed, then please tell me what it is

Fair enough. I had no way of knowing you guys had agreed the weekend would be fine.

 

[chansen]

Fair enough. I had no way of knowing you guys had agreed the weekend would be fine.

I've waited this long. A few days more is fine.

 

[JayneWonders]

Fair enough. I had no way of knowing you guys had agreed the weekend would be fine.

You could ask, rather than being belligerent.

You could have remembered that I said, I had had little sleep.

The tone said a lot.
I'm sure the message on this one does too.

I will get to it

 

[paradox3]

You could ask, rather than being belligerent.

Where was I belligerent?

You could have remembered that I said, I had had little sleep.

Yes I recall that. So?

The tone said a lot.
I'm sure the message on this one does too.

Tone is very hard to judge when there is only text to go by.

I will get to it

Perfect. As the topic starter on this thread I feel it's important. Just didn't want it to get lost.

 

[paradox3]

I have indicated before, my role here is a volunteer

Yes. We are all aware of this.

I would appreciate fair consideration. As I said, I was running on very little sleep

It would have been considerate to mention your response would be coming in a few days.

If there is a deadline that I have missed, then please tell me what it is

Sarcasm?

 

[JayneWonders]

I have received confirmation from @jimkenney12 that the one member that he is referring to is me.

Minor note: don't be vague, please. If you mean me, use Jaynewonders and tag me. It sure would help me. I wasn't sure and sought clarification but that took time.

I am happy to respond to your queries but between being busy with the Northwind /chemgal saga , related conversations and a very busy time at work, I am running on empty. I received less than 4 hrs sleep last night. A sleep deprived response and resultant back and forths would not good.

There are others who could likely provide a detailed response re timeline for wondercafe2

For those who might have asked or wondered, will I respond, Jim Kenney and I discussed his request behind the scenes.
"Please take as much time as you need, days even." was his reply.

As indicated, I am working now. Not in retirement, plus have family committments, plus....well, other stuff.