And God said it was good....

[Jaebius]

It occurs to me that this week with the announcement of the Northern Gateway was an inconvenient week to have this sermon planned...

PrJae, do you read the Genesis account as science? because if you do I would point out that it says nothing about the nature of solar radiation, it also never says the creation is perfect (as I mentioned upthread). I suggest your comment about skin cancer is not Scripturally valid, as well as being scientifically questionable.

Fair comments GordW. No - I don't take the creation accounts as science. Did I say that there was no solar radiation? I don't recall if I did or not. If I did - it could be that I erred there. At the same time - I do believe that before the fall of humanity - death and hence disease had not entered the picture. Thus - it must logically follow that either there was no solar radiation - that the solar radiation was not harmful - or that the first humans were being protected from the radiation.

 

[GordW]

I would posit that if there was life there was solar radiation. And solar radiation contains parts that harm DNA. Therefore it could have caused cancer. (Mind you the intensity of said radiation and the ability of the atmosphere to filter it likely has varied over time) But since I think the "Fall" story is not scientific nor historic I suggest that as long as there has been life there has been death and disease....

 

[Jaebius]

I would posit that if there was life there was solar radiation. And solar radiation contains parts that harm DNA. Therefore it could have caused cancer. (Mind you the intensity of said radiation and the ability of the atmosphere to filter it likely has varied over time) But since I think the "Fall" story is not scientific nor historic I suggest that as long as there has been life there has been death and disease....

We know that solar radiation as it now exists is harmful. Whether or not it was 6,000 years ago is a different question. If it was - it would appear that the first humans were shielded from it in one way or another - perhaps supernaturally by God. You'll notice I said - perhaps there - I'm thinking out loud. The Bible tells us - “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord”- Romans 6:23 (ESV). Death did not enter the picture until after our earliest ancestors sinned.

 

[revjohn]

We know that solar radiation as it now exists is harmful. Whether or not it was 6,000 years ago is a different question

Only if it can be demonstrated that there has been a significant change in the nature of the Sun. Otherwise Solar radiation as it now exists would be no different from Solar radiation as it then existed.

If it was - it would appear that the first humans were shielded from it in one way or another - perhaps supernaturally by God.

Or naturally by something like an ozone layer. We know that the depletion of this layer has resulted in greater intensities of solar radiation striking the face of the earth.

Death did not enter the picture until after our earliest ancestors sinned.

That is actually a leap to a conclusion that may or may not be warranted.

The only conversation about death in the Creation narrative was a warning, eat this and you will die. Interestingly nobody asked what death meant. Which is what you would expect somebody inexperienced with death to ask.

Death may have always been present within creation (did the seed bearing trees and plants never drop leaves, never have branches that rotted, never actually functioned with the design we find present in them now) the death by eating of a specific tree may have been a specific kind of death or a premature death event in some manner.

Something to consider in light of the fact that both Adam and Eve allegedly ate and then lasted long enough to have a conversation with God about what they had done.

God didn't show up shovel in hand to dig graves for two disobedient people so we needn't take the text literally.

 

[Jaebius]

Death may have always been present within creation (did the seed bearing trees and plants never drop leaves, never have branches that rotted, never actually functioned with the design we find present in them now) the death by eating of a specific tree may have been a specific kind of death or a premature death event in some manner.

It may be difficult for us to accept John - but the Bible says that the wages of sin is death. Death did not enter the world until after people sinned. So - yes - that means that at first - at the time of creation there was no death for plants.

Something to consider in light of the fact that both Adam and Eve allegedly ate and then lasted long enough to have a conversation with God about what they had done.

God didn't show up shovel in hand to dig graves for two disobedient people so we needn't take the text literally.

Adam and Eve became spiritually dead immediately after God judged them - and they physically died out quickly enough (their lifetimes were extremely short - compared to the lifespan of the eternal God).

 

[Pinga]

Of course many of us would not agree with your interpretation of the bible Jae.

I would posit that if there was life there was solar radiation. And solar radiation contains parts that harm DNA. Therefore it could have caused cancer. (Mind you the intensity of said radiation and the ability of the atmosphere to filter it likely has varied over time) But since I think the "Fall" story is not scientific nor historic I suggest that as long as there has been life there has been death and disease....

Amen.

 

[Mendalla]

But, Jae, everything in this world dies. It is part of the cycle of existence. Are you suggesting that all of existence is suffering because of the sin of Adam and Eve? That trees and birds and such are cursed by sin just as we are? Because that makes no sense to me at all. There's nothing in the story to suggest that anything other than the first couple and their descendants was to be affected (not that I even accept that much).

 

[Jaebius]

Of course many of us would not agree with your interpretation of the bible Jae.

Oh - I accept that Pinga - not many here would agree. In the evangelical circles that I travel in - though - not many would disagree. I respect everyone's right to hold and express their own beliefs.

 

[Jaebius]

But, Jae, everything in this world dies. It is part of the cycle of existence. Are you suggesting that all of existence is suffering because of the sin of Adam and Eve? That trees and birds and such are cursed by sin just as we are? Because that makes no sense to me at all. There's nothing in the story to suggest that anything other than the first couple and their descendants was to be affected (not that I even accept that much).

What I'm suggesting Mendalla is that all of existence has been affected - is suffering - because of the fall of humanity. All of creation is groaning to be redeemed. Humanity was placed above the rest of creation - and when we sinned we brought everything down with us. The world as first created was very good - no disease - no death. Our disobedience in Eden resulted in damage to everything. That's what I'm suggesting. Thankfully - God has a great mission to redeem everything he has created.

 

[crazyheart]

ummmmm, jae, are you sure the people in your circle believe what you do?

 

[Jaebius]

ummmmm, jae, are you sure the people in your circle believe what you do?

Have I polled each and every one? No - of course I haven't.

The two churches I work at are conservative churches - and certainly the official talk from the pulpits runs along conservative theological lines. I'd be surprised to hear anyone from either church voice a different point of view.

Admittedly - the other students in my seminary cohort - the majority of whom are younger than I am - seem to view the creation accounts more skeptically. We've discussed creation in class - and I think I would call most of them theistic evolutionists. They believe that evolution happened - but that somehow the invisible hand of God was behind it all.

 

[revjohn]

It may be difficult for us to accept John - but the Bible says that the wages of sin is death.

And what sin did plants commit that earned them that sentence? Does God punish the whole of Creation for the sin of one creature?

Death did not enter the world until after people sinned. So - yes - that means that at first - at the time of creation there was no death for plants.

I don't find your argument compelling. To be candid it appears to be a lot of proof-texting and leaping to conclusion.

Adam and Eve became spiritually dead immediately after God judged them

See, this is one of those leaping to conclusions bit. Where in the narrative does God say they will only die spiritually if they eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,for when you eat from it you will certainly die.

It isn't the judgment of God which brings death. It is the result of eating of the forbidden fruit.

and they physically died out quickly enough (their lifetimes were extremely short - compared to the lifespan of the eternal God).

Of course their life-spans were short compared to the Eternal God, they aren't eternal beings. While true the lifespan of God is beside the fact. The true test would have been a comparison with their life-spans had they not eaten the fruit. A test we cannot make since that is not the way that the narrative plays out.

The argument that they would have lived forever is based on what text?

You are assuming that the text which reads "The wages of sin are death" means something other than what it says. If you sin you die is not the same thing as saying if you do not sin you will never die.

 

[Seeler]

I would posit that if there was life there was solar radiation. And solar radiation contains parts that harm DNA. Therefore it could have caused cancer. (Mind you the intensity of said radiation and the ability of the atmosphere to filter it likely has varied over time) But since I think the "Fall" story is not scientific nor historic I suggest that as long as there has been life there has been death and disease....

I can't imagine life without death. And if there is death, then there is a cause of death - disease or accident.
It's part of the circle of life. Birth, life, death - rebirth and renewed life.
Can you imagine a world in which there is no death - where every person who ever lived from Neanderthal to the present time was still living? Neither can I.

 

[Hermann]

I think "good" and "bad" are human concepts that were created by us humans when we arose from creation. They do not apply to the world of God.

"What is good, Phaedrus, and what is not good? And do we need anyone to tell us these things?"

from the Dialoges by Plato

 

[GordW]

If anyone is interested, here is what I ended up saying...
http://stpaulsuc.podbean.com/e/and-god-said-it-was-good/

 

[Seeler]

Very good, Gord.

 

[Pinga]

thanks gord.
my compliments to the scripture reader as well

 

[Delightful Life]

fun riff Gord -- thanks for continuing to ask questions and for your embracing of not knowing

cancer is good
jihadists are good
nuclear explosions are good
rabies is good
the keystone pipeline is good
_____ is good

struggling with concepts is good

people see the world and try to make it fit into their particular story-structure

sombunall people who believe in an all-loving, all-knowing etc creator deity try to figure out the mental disconnect between 'creation was good' and 'man, my dog just ate a live rabbit'

and come up/agree with the many ways that have already been written aboot to try to account for this...creation is fallen...there is something called 'sin' which makes it so...some kind of entity is responsible for this...creation of a concept called 'free will'...and so forth...

i see this in the environmental movement as well -- 'nature', 'the environment' is some kind of blessed and perfect creation or Deity that to consider anything else is to sully it...to sin...

a christian metaphor i really enjoy is justification by grace through faith

that the world is an awesome place

or to use Rob Brezsny, universe is conspiring to shower me with blessings

so, how to teach people to be able to embrace this? to grok with fullness rather than just relying on sheer willpower alone (ihavefaithihavefaithihavefaithohohmortgage!)

are there some stories that are more in accord to how the world is than others?

thanks for the thoughts again, Gord

 

[unsafe]

Hi GordW your quote ---- Do we actually believe that all of Creation is good, as the first Creation story tells us? DO we act like it?
Remember that includes the mosquito, the measles virus, the bad driver who just cut you off...

I will agree that God did create all things that includes the mosquito ----the question is did God create the mosquito to be a pest to humans in the beginning ----the virus you speak of came as part of the curse ---all sickness and disease is part of the curse ----we humans were never meant to be sick or die in the beginning ----and the bad driver well it is all about how we react to that ----God does test us ----and we can take that as good or bad depending on how much control we have over our emotions -----

On the mosquito side of things ---this is what I personally believe ----they were created as part of the food chain ---not to pester humans ---again the curse was put in place and pestilence was born ---again because of the fall ----


Strong's Concordance
deber: pestilence
Original Word:דָּ֫בֶר
Part of Speech:Noun Masculine
Transliteration:deber
Phonetic Spellingdeh'-ber)
Short Definitionestilence
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
fromdabar
Definition
pestilence
NASB Translation
pestilence (38), plague (10), thorns (1).

Deuteronomy 28:21-22
English Standard Version (ESV)

21 TheLordwill make(A)the pestilence stick to you until he has consumed you off the land that you are entering to take possession of it.22 (B)TheLordwill strike you with wasting disease and with fever, inflammation and fiery heat, and with drought[a]and with(C)blight and with mildew. They shall pursue you until you perish.

So who is at fault God or the fall of man for the pesky mosquito -----Everything God made in the beginning was good ---we screwed up ----

Peace

 

[chansen]

The mosquito wasn't created to be a pest to humans because mosquitoes pre-date humans by at least 46 million years. Perhaps as much as 79 million years. We've only been here a couple hundred thousand years or so. We're new. They're old.