And God said it was good....

[Azdgari]

Well - I believe that God is perfect in his essential character - and that he is perfect in everything he chooses to do. Indeed - I believe God sets the standards.

But what does "perfect in his essential character" mean? The fact that we can string a set of words together does not make them meaningful.

If there is a god, it is not perfect at choosing to do what I or anyone else want it to do. It is also not perfect at refraining from universe-creation. It is also not perfect at promoting evil.

As for setting the standards, anyone can set standards. What's special about that?

 

[GeoFee]

In my imagination I hear swallows humming a tune while darting about catching mosquitoes and blackflies - "For health and strength and daily food, we give you thanks O Lord."

 

[chansen]

This thread made me think of this:

Meh, good enough.

 

[Jaebius]

This thread made me think of this:

Meh, good enough.

It didn't cause us cancer until after the fall. The disobedience of humanity and the subsequent fall had an effect upon all of creation. The sun - too - groans for redemption.

 

[chansen]

It didn't cause us cancer until after the fall.

How the hell am I supposed to take that seriously?

 

[Jaebius]

How the hell am I supposed to take that seriously?

I don't know. It just seems logical to me. If all creation was affected by the fall - that would include the sun as well.

= sun without Jesus / = sun with Jesus

 

[Mendalla]

I don't know. It just seems logical to me. If all creation was affected by the fall - that would include the sun as well.

= sun without Jesus / = sun with Jesus

But I thought that the Fall only affected humans?

 

[Azdgari]

So the sun didn't put out UV rays before the Fall? Are you sure you believe that, Jae?

 

[Jaebius]

So the sun didn't put out UV rays before the Fall? Are you sure you believe that, Jae?

Before the fall there was no death - and no sickness (including cancer). What I'm saying is that the sun wasn't causing those things.

 

[Azdgari]

That's even stranger. So before the fall, Adam and Eve's cells didn't die? And neither did their bacteria? That must have resulted in a serious bacterial overgrowth, if the bacteria just multiplied and didn't die.

Also, UV rays kill cells - they have enough energy to do so. Cells aren't tough enough to always withstand UV radiation. Not human cells - they'd have to be made of something different in order to do that. So either Adam and Eve were supposed to be made of different material before the Fall, and therefore weren't human...or there was no UV radiation. You're the one making up this story, you tell me!

 

[Neo]

Before the fall we didn't live in physical bodies, hence the fall into matter and into bodies of matter.

 

[Pinga]

Thankfully, there are a significant portion of Christians who do not take those items literally.

Back to the

In my imagination I hear swallows humming a tune while darting about catching mosquitoes and blackflies - "For health and strength and daily food, we give you thanks O Lord."

I like that GeoFee.

 

[Azdgari]

Before the fall we didn't live in physical bodies, hence the fall into matter and into bodies of matter.

That's not a part of the Biblical story that Jae is talking about. Are you saying this happened in reality? If so, then when?

 

[Pinga]

Azdgari, I don't frequent the religion & faith pages as much as others. Where do you consider yourself on the Atheist - Agnostic - Christian fundamentalist / conservative - Christian conservate - Unitarian - other faith perspective circle?

 

[Pinga]

Back to your opening post, RevGordW.

I think that we do not consider all of creation good, and as such we make serious errors.

I think of the consequences of DDT as we killed weeds and in so doing wiped out sections of the food chain
I think of the consequences of antibiotics used aggressively and poorly, resulting in stronger resistant viruses.

There are many more, where we look at a symptom and miss the symptoms part of the greater chain.

We humans like simple solutions, when creation is complex...

 

[Azdgari]

Azdgari, I don't frequent the religion & faith pages as much as others. Where do you consider yourself on the Atheist - Agnostic - Christian fundamentalist / conservative - Christian conservate - Unitarian - other faith perspective circle?

I'm an atheist. This exchange with Jae is about his views, so I accepting them for the sake of argument.

 

[Seeler]

In my imagination I hear swallows humming a tune while darting about catching mosquitoes and blackflies - "For health and strength and daily food, we give you thanks O Lord."

I like this GeoFee. Something similar to our Thanksgiving when we give thanks for the bounty of the earth.

 

[chansen]

Before the fall we didn't live in physical bodies, hence the fall into matter and into bodies of matter.

That's even worse than what Jae wrote. There is a magical point at which we fell into bodies? Where is that supported in the fossil record? Sounds more like Scientology to me.

 

[chansen]

Well, Chansen, here we go again.

The image I used was partly in response to your post on page 1 about creation being either true or a myth with a punchline. Creation is one place where religion intersects with science, and has there ever been an instance of religion disagreeing with science and religion winning out in the end? Ever?

From where I sit, you want your faith, and you're working very hard to separate out anything that could possibly be tested and found wanting. There is something more noble, to me, in the approach of someone like Jae, who thumps down a bible and proclaims he believes it (except where it's a game and he really doesn't), rather than holding one close and saying that you mostly believe it except where it's too embarassing or not practical to do so.

Because really, talking in circles and trying to believe some of it and metaphorize the unbelievable is no more credible that what Jae is saying.

 

[Neo]

That's even worse than what Jae wrote. There is a magical point at which we fell into bodies? Where is that supported in the fossil record? Sounds more like Scientology to me.

Creation myths from all around the world speak of "Wars in Heaven" resulting in a great "Fall from Heaven": from the spiritual world to the manifested "underworld", where, as it's been described, there was a "great sacrifice for the human soul", as it involved a severe but willing "limitation of its sphere of expression".

These creation myths are usually based in the belief in the Human Soul, the Psyche of Man existing before the existence of the physical form. This Soul would've overshadowed and impressed it's influence in the early animal man. There are no fossil records of psyche, only the forms it inhabits.

The evolution of man, according to the esoteric teachings, is really the evolution of awareness, from the unknown to the known. It's a cycle that first descends deeper into the darkness (of matter and form) and then eventually back again into the light (of spirit/energy). Eventually, says the teachings, we will discover and become once again fully aware of the Soul, which is also known as the "Higher Mind", and the "Christ within" and the "Christ Consciousness".

When did this "Coming of Mind" occur? According to HPB, which is from her Master, this fall began about 18 million years ago.

Can I prove any of this? Nope, not a chance. But this is what the myths talk about.