Pavlos said:What would you be had you had no religious influences until you were say thirteen, (adolescence) then you would be able to decide for yourself.
Jae said:Decide what for myself exactly? Decide to belong to an organized religion or not? Yes Pavlos, I believe you to be correct on that one. I see that as a different thing, however, than the capability to decide to have faith or not.
Pavlos said:Doesn't follow.
Okay. How can I clarify that one for you?
P[FONT=Open Sans]avlos']Whether religion were true or not.[/quote] [/FONT] [quote="Jae said:On what grounds would I be making that decision? On the grounds of my own limited human reason? If so, I would most probably choose not.
Pavlos said:That would be the most reasonable conclusion. Given you're a human, well I hope so.
Ah, but is there something higher than human reason? I believe so - the thinking of God, and I believe that he has given me the mind of Christ - the ability to think upon higher things.
Pavlos said:That is inculcation/indoctrination of an innocent, totally wrong! It is almost child abuse.
Jae said:Almost child abuse - by whom? God?
Pavlos said:No! By your parents. but sadly they were indoctrinated too. and as such also victims. they know not what they do.
My parents wanted their children to have faith. That said, I believe that it is God who is the effectual actor in baptism. My parents had no power to save me. Only God had the power to enliven me from my dead state.
pr.jae said:In terms of being given faith, however, I did not have a choice. I did not have a choice as an infant. I would not have had a choice at age 13. I was dead in my trespasses and sins.
Pavlos said:No! Exactly you were indoctrinated.
No, I was enlivened by God. Until that happened, I was spiritually dead. And the dead, at any age, aren't able to make any choice. They are only able to... wait for it... remain dead.