Extrabiblical Evidence about Jesus in the First 2 Centuries

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Pavlos said:
What would you be had you had no religious influences until you were say thirteen, (adolescence) then you would be able to decide for yourself.

Jae said:
Decide what for myself exactly? Decide to belong to an organized religion or not? Yes Pavlos, I believe you to be correct on that one. I see that as a different thing, however, than the capability to decide to have faith or not.

Pavlos said:
Doesn't follow.

Okay. How can I clarify that one for you?

P[FONT=Open Sans]avlos']Whether religion were true or not.[/quote] [/FONT] [quote="Jae said:
On what grounds would I be making that decision? On the grounds of my own limited human reason? If so, I would most probably choose not.

Pavlos said:
That would be the most reasonable conclusion. Given you're a human, well I hope so.

Ah, but is there something higher than human reason? I believe so - the thinking of God, and I believe that he has given me the mind of Christ - the ability to think upon higher things.

Pavlos said:
That is inculcation/indoctrination of an innocent, totally wrong! It is almost child abuse.

Jae said:
Almost child abuse - by whom? God?

Pavlos said:
No! By your parents. but sadly they were indoctrinated too. and as such also victims. they know not what they do.

My parents wanted their children to have faith. That said, I believe that it is God who is the effectual actor in baptism. My parents had no power to save me. Only God had the power to enliven me from my dead state.

pr.jae said:
In terms of being given faith, however, I did not have a choice. I did not have a choice as an infant. I would not have had a choice at age 13. I was dead in my trespasses and sins.

Pavlos said:
No! Exactly you were indoctrinated.

No, I was enlivened by God. Until that happened, I was spiritually dead. And the dead, at any age, aren't able to make any choice. They are only able to... wait for it... remain dead.
 
Pavlos, I think there are subtleties here that you might be missing.

Do I understand that you have no background in theology at all? You seem quite familiar with the Jesus Seminar.

Here's another position, mine, which is really the only one I can offer. I grew up the child of a lapsed Catholic and a very convicted atheist. No exposure to God-stuff at all until I asked. (I also have to ask if you have children - I have several, and they are anything but blank slates, from fetus through to adulthood.) However, I seem to have been a God-struck child; about age 5 found a neighbour who was a christian, and made my way to their church. Convinced my mother this was a good idea, and promptly dragged both of my younger sisters with me, for the next dozen years, to the local Lutheran church. They welcomed this little trio of religious orphans into their midst and never once tried to convert our parents, although my mother would come to the Christmas Eve service.

Came to an age of crisis in my mid-teens, left the church, declared myself an atheist, and never looked back. Had children, with another atheist, got divorced. Got to thinking that at least I had a stepping off point, something to reject, wondered what my kids would do. So I took them to church, then aged 9 and 6, so they'd at least have a path to move on from. And NOT just any church - one that I was quite sure was LGBTQ-friendly and had no belief requirements that I would be unable to satisfy. Didn't have them baptized at that point, did not even insist, once they got past age 12 (the age at which a child may legally be left alone with a sibling for any time), that they come with me. Have never considered my self anything other than an a-theist, one who has no belief in a theistic god. However, there isn't just theism and atheism as choices. There is polytheism, pantheism, and most importantly, panentheism. I have moved from a strictly a-theist point of view to a panentheistic point of view. I still consider my faith completely without theos - an external, supernatural god. However, in some wyrd, mystical ways over the years, I have had a few experiences over the last 20 years which have gifted me with an fundamental trust in the ultimate (not individual) benevolence of the Universe, and the ultimately complete bulls**t of a division between me and Thou. You and I are one, star stuff, currently incarnated on this particular plane of this particular universe, to do the best we can for our own good and that of the commons.

My children do not feel indoctrinated. One of them, a boy in his late 20s, is completely comfortable with the church, and when he's living in our home town, is an active member of the church, and a member of one of the church teams - Outreach. When he's living elsewhere (he's travelling right now), he seeks out churches to hang out in, and with. He's made a best friend in a minister in a church in Vancouver. The other child, completely unharmed, as far as she knows, calls herself a Pagan/Christian, and does little about it, except to come to church on Christmas Eve with me (and the odd church dinner/lunch where she says "hi" to all her friends and just hangs out), and neither she nor I worry at all about it.
 
Why are mortals so sure of themselves of their knowledge of eternal things ... them having not been there yet ...?

Unless they are perhaps children of iteration ... open to infinite myths that are none the less ... out there ... buried in the environment? Sort of take carbon dating as an icon of things in the past for consideration by those stuck in the present sense ...

Is that ill heh had or 'ave we an isle-ET shadow ... so abstract theis deeper portion of the brain well ... with tails ... give it a jerk and see if it weals or 'owls for Moor ...
 
Unfortunately, the thread title promises evidence. There's some little evidence for the existence of a Jewish prophet named Jesus; no evidence exists for any of the miraculous claims made of him.
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Unfortunately, the thread title promises evidence. There's some little evidence for the existence of a Jewish prophet named Jesus; no evidence exists for any of the miraculous claims made of him.

wikipedia :
Although there is "near universal consensus" among scholars that Jesus existed historically, biblical scholars differ about the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the details of his life that have been described in the gospels.

what Christ taught is a matter of faith , I accept it on thous grounds, among others
 
So, we're agreeing here. Evidence for human person named Jesus: exists, extrabiblically. Anything on top of that requires faith.
 
So, we're agreeing here. Evidence for human person named Jesus: exists, extrabiblically. Anything on top of that requires faith.

yes, I have no problem with that, I mean i believe in Miracles, the Holy Spirit in My life, The Resurrection and so forth, I can argue well for it , but I cannot prove it, I can speak about changed lives, testimonies, and so forth but in the end it boils down to faith
 
OK, but you do see the difference in credibility between an extra-biblical source, and the religion's own scriptures?; I don't think there's too much doubt that the prophet Mohammed existed, but what he claims in the Quran is a bit different. And there's a much closer relationship between the Quran and Mohammed than there is between the New Testament and Jesus.
 
Pavlos Maros -----it's Ok you can think as you like you have free will to choose -----you will know the real Truth when you die ---and that is for sure the truth ---whatever you believe here is your choice -----after you die you just might belong to a God that you don't think exists ---and that is what you don't know and can't prove -----you see for us who believe in God and His Son who died for us to be free of sin and death ---we have nothing to prove or loose if we die and their is no God ----all we did was accept God's Son and Believe and follow a Book that says it is God's word and it is truth which didn't and doesn't cost us anything except to believe and receive -----and for me personally its been and continues to be an amazing experience ------you on the other hand have a lot to loose when you die if your wrong and there is a God and there was His Son named Jesus Christ who died to save us from sin and death -----and His Book was true -----which says your eternal life is lost forever and you die a second death --------So no matter what either of us believe one of us is right and one of us is wrong ------ and we will both know in the end which one of us was right and which one is wrong ------so good luck to you on being the one who is right -----

Merry Christ--mas to you
 
Hey, but what if, the Muslim view of god, paradise and the criteria to get in is actually the right one? Then, both you and Pavlos are f***ed...

You have absolutely no proof, except for your own faith, which comes out of the inside of your head, that you have the RIGHT answer, and there's not just two alternate answers, there's a million. Why on earth does your ego insist that you have the RIGHT and ONLY answer? Yuck.
 
Hey, but what if, the Muslim view of god, paradise and the criteria to get in is actually the right one? Then, both you and Pavlos are f***ed...

You have absolutely no proof, except for your own faith, which comes out of the inside of your head, that you have the RIGHT answer, and there's not just two alternate answers, there's a million. Why on earth does your ego insist that you have the RIGHT and ONLY answer? Yuck.


the reason why we believe as we do is not just because of the Bible, but because of preponderance of evidence , testimonies world wide, but mostly of not completly because of the Holy Spirit, one part I have never been able to explain His presence other than my personal testimony of Him. Because before that i was just Like you , scripture was simply ancient literature and my Catholicism was simple regilous rule
 
Well, if you were 'right', you'd know that the spirit of Godde is a she...

Oh, blackbelt, there's more Muslims worldwide than Christians. Surely, some large bulk of them also rely on personal experience (those mystical moments of "one-ness" that most of us have, at some point in our life, and explain VERY differently).
 
Furthermore, unsafe, unless you really want to go all RC on us, the Mass of Christ makes you sound a bit, well, not very Protestant. Which given your sola scriptura philosophy, is a bit jarring.
 
Much of what Luke records in the Bible has historical accuracy and is a reliable source. Wouldn't it be likely that he would use that same ability to record the history of Christianity and Jesus during the earliest years of the church?
Also why is it that we don't question more about the reason why Josephus and other independent sources, may have failed to record a significant part of history? Why is there less scrutiny than the Gospels?

Also, cameras and video cameras weren't invented in Jesus' day, but the artwork speaks of the miracles as well as the books of the Bible.
Within the catacombs of Rome there are numerous depictions of Jesus' miracles and parables illustrated and contrary to what some may believe, these grave sites also show that many buried with these illustrations on their markers were from the middle class and wealthy....in other words educated, and not just uneducated goat herders. (popular myth). It was probably the same then as it is now, the more educated the less likely to believe...so what prompts a well educated ancient to proclaim Jesus upon a headstone? Especially when they were closer to the actual event than we are?

How long does it take for a myth to take hold? 500 years? 750?
 
Well, if you were 'right', you'd know that the spirit of Godde is a she...

actually the Spirit of God is genderless,

Oh, blackbelt, there's more Muslims worldwide than Christians. Surely, some large bulk of them also rely on personal experience (those mystical moments of "one-ness" that most of us have, at some point in our life, and explain VERY differently).

agreed, that is why the Resurrection is so so important , because the spirit world is teaming with life we dont know what spirit we listen to because frankly there invisible , yet all these spirits through channelers, teach different , that logically says, some are telling the truth and some are not, when you have a Spirit witnessing to you that the resurrection is a fact contunally through out your life and then one continues to weigh the evidence like the birth of the church, the myters in the Roman collasume, the death of the Apostles and so forth , you can only come to one logical reasonable conclusion, that all that is written about Christ is True.

Im not dissing your belief in any way, i been there and I understand you, but with out the Spirit all we have as I had is simple print on paper and with that we try and make sense of it based in our own strength.

I can go on and on, my personal spiritual history goes back to my early teens, i was no christian, i only been a christian about 10 ysr now. and have and still am Learning and studying.
 
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