Covid 19 Vaccine

[Mendalla]

Have we had to pull people from health care roles for the regular flu shot?
I'm aware that we've had a shortage of flu vaccines but haven't heard of a shortage of doctors, nurses, pharmacists giving them.

My pharmacy sometimes can't do them if it is busy and the pharmacy tech is off (the pharmacist works alone evenings and weekends) but they do give them. The only case I heard of workers being pulled from other duties was for health unit clinics. Someone at work was married to a public health nurse who normally did nursing coaching and post natal care or something like that and I met her working at their flu clinic at least once.

 

[Waterfall]

My pharmacy sometimes can't do them if it is busy and the pharmacy tech is off (the pharmacist works alone evenings and weekends) but they do give them. The only case I heard of workers being pulled from other duties was for health unit clinics. Someone at work was married to a public health nurse who normally did nursing coaching and post natal care or something like that and I met her working at their flu clinic at least once.

Okay, well I hope they have a high number of competent people within the army....not every one is suited to administer them if they're not familiar...but hey, whatever.
I guess I just see those trained for combat but not this....
Can we have a choice if we want our doctor to do it?

 

[Waterfall]

Just in case anyone is interested, this is how many people are enlisted in the Canadian army:

Canadian Army - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Mendalla]

Can we have a choice if we want our doctor to do it?

Not for Pfizer. Doubt they have a freezer that cold. Yes for Oxford Astrozeneca I imagine.

I know even the pharmacists were dicey when they started doing shots. Mine is pretty good now but that's after several years (we've been using the same pharmacy for years, since our previous one closed when Zeller's shut down).

 

[Waterfall]

I know even the pharmacists were dicey when they started doing shots.

Yeah, I can see some young (to me) adult that's not familiar with giving needles, closing their eyes and gritting their teeth.....lol.
Hopefully these are all prefilled.

 

[Waterfall]

NO

The following is a list of the pharmaceutical companies that have, to-date publicly announced that they will stand behind their product and waive immunity from liability for injuries caused by their CovID vaccine:

NONE

I'm bringing this forward.....there is no responsibility from the makers of the vaccine or the gov't for any adverse affects should that happen.

And we still don't know how long immunity will last even if you have the vaccine.

 

[Ritafee]

to pull the trigger on a vaccine

Russian Roulette In the UK ... has a nice ring to it.

 

[Ritafee]

I seem to recall reading years ago about third world countries being used as "testing" grounds for new vaccines .....but I can't seem to find any of those articles, have you ever heard of that or anyone?

Indeed ... I have ... but seems the internet is being purged of any information that might be detrimental to vaccine compliance.

 

[Mendalla]

I'm bringing this forward.....there is no responsibility from the makers of the vaccine or the gov't for any adverse affects should that happen.

Sure there is. There is ample precedent for suing drug makers whose products cause problems. Lawsuits are how we hold companies responsible and even if the government tries to pass legislation immunizing them from suits, that legislation itself can be challenged. That said, I would rather there be a mechanism already in place rather than a messy class action suit.

 

[Waterfall]

Sure there is. There is ample precedent for suing drug makers whose products cause problems. Lawsuits are how we hold companies responsible and even if the government tries to pass legislation immunizing them from suits, that legislation itself can be challenged. That said, I would rather there be a mechanism already in place rather than a messy class action suit.

All of these drug companies will not ship their vaccines if they are held liable for any adverse effects. In the United states, the public readiness and emergency preparedness act, provides manufacturers immunity from lawsuits caused by vaccines, with narrow exceptions.
Astro Zeneca for example, in their bilateral contracts, are protected against any legal claims with their vaccines." Since it cannot take the risk of liability". In the USA they will be referred to the department of Health and Human services.
Is there protection for Canadians other than Quebec?

 

[Mendalla]

All of these drug companies will not ship their vaccines if they are held liable for any adverse effects. In the United states, the public readiness and emergency preparedness act, provides manufacturers immunity from lawsuits caused by vaccines, with narrow exceptions.
Astro Zeneca for example, in their bilateral contracts, are protected against any legal claims with their vaccines." Since it cannot take the risk of liability". In the USA they will be referred to the department of Health and Human services.
Is there protection for Canadians other than Quebec?

And any good lawyer can go though those contracts and laws and look for holes. "Are governments legally able to bind their citizens?" in this way would be a starting point. That contract may just mean the government can't sue, but not a citizen or class of citizens (i.e. people harmed by the vaccine). And if the contract stands and the company is protected from liability, then the lawyers can go after the government who will have less protection. Trust me, there will probably be suits even if there is no harm done beyond what is normal for a new drug. Most likely, it won't even be tried, the government will step in with a compensation offer just to stop the suit.

 

[Waterfall]

And any good lawyer can go though those contracts and laws and look for holes. "Are governments legally able to bind their citizens?" in this way would be a starting point. That contract may just mean the government can't sue, but not a citizen or class of citizens (i.e. people harmed by the vaccine). And if the contract stands and the company is protected from liability, then the lawyers can go after the government who will have less protection. Trust me, there will probably be suits even if there is no harm done beyond what is normal for a new drug. Most likely, it won't even be tried, the government will step in with a compensation offer just to stop the suit.

Im aware of companies being sued for prescription drugs but vaccines are in a whole other category after the Cutter pharmeceutical case for the polio vaccine and others.
Canada is the only one of the G7 nations to NOT have a compensation program, except for Quebec.

 

[Mendalla]

Im aware of companies being sued for prescription drugs but vaccines are in a whole other category after the Cutter pharmeceutical case for the polio vaccine and others.
Canada is the only one of the G7 nations to NOT have a compensation program, except for Quebec.

Which is a problem because that means the courts will get to decide what is the compensation and they are interested in the plaintiffs case, not the taxpayers. The tainted blood scandal will no doubt be a card that gets played here.

 

[Ritafee]

Is there protection for Canadians other than Quebec?

Canada, has purchased more vaccines per capita than any other country, but there is a lingering policy gap.


What happens in the instance that an individual should suffer an adverse event from the vaccine?

COVID-19 vaccines will have to meet regulatory standards for safety and efficacy, but may not detect all side-effects in Phase 3 trials.


There are real ethical challenges in encouraging everyone to be vaccinated without providing any support for adverse events that may occur as a result.

People who sustain harm while contributing to herd immunity should be supported by a national no-fault vaccine injury program that would provide a straightforward path to compensation.

Notably, Canada is alone among G7 nations in not having a vaccine injury compensation program, although the province of Quebec does have one. At least 25 jurisdictions around the world have such programs, including countries such as Vietnam and Nepal.

No-fault compensation programs make sense for several reasons.

If someone is injured in the process of partaking in a perceived public good, they should be provided with just compensation.

An initial target group will be front-line workers who care for vulnerable populations.

There will be the pressure of expectation — if not the outright requirement — that they be vaccinated.

It would be unjust and antithetical that these workers, if in the instance they suffer a possible adverse event, would be left on their own.

Canada should address this gap in vaccination policy before COVID-19 vaccines are experimented with.

 

[ChemGal]

Giving a vaccine really isn't difficult. As long as someone isn't being slow with the needle out of fear I see no problem there and the military can practice on each other with an empty syringe. My concern would be reactions. What is the training there and with military how much are they willing to listen to a patient vs. just follow a standard routine? Every person is different for the majority the biggest immediate concern is anaphylaxis (well most common concern is someone just fainting and hitting their head) but if people know they are prone to something else getting normal medical professionals to listen is hard enough and I think the military would be worse.

 

[ChemGal]

Not for Pfizer. Doubt they have a freezer that cold. Yes for Oxford Astrozeneca I imagine.

I know even the pharmacists were dicey when they started doing shots. Mine is pretty good now but that's after several years (we've been using the same pharmacy for years, since our previous one closed when Zeller's shut down).

Dicey how?

 

[Mendalla]

Dicey how?

Let's just say that after years of getting shots from health unit nurses, my first time with a pharmacist was pretty high on the ouch-meter. Hurt for a while afterwards. Same pharmacist this time, no ouchie or even lingering soreness.

 

[ChemGal]

Let's just say that after years of getting shots from health unit nurses, my first time with a pharmacist was pretty high on the ouch-meter. Hurt for a while afterwards. Same pharmacist this time, no ouchie or even lingering soreness.

Unless the pharmacist went really slow with the needle it may just have been the particular spot, and that's not skill it's just (bad) luck. Chemguy was a bit sketched out with pharmacists doing it the first year, I think he may have gone elsewhere. Then we went through my IV training and it was like oh, as long as someone isn't freaked out by needles and has a reasonable level of dexterity they could do a good job with the administration, throw in some people skills, especially for the anxious & kids.

 

[Pinga]

I think people are presuming that there wouldn't be public health engaged in the vaccine.

When I went to get tested for COVID, public health was doing everything from registry to testing.

Picture the vaccine:
It has to come in, it has to be distributed, it has to have people being advised that they can get it, it has to have controls at the vaccination site. Actually, the vaccination sites need to be setup. People who are working need support. At some point, someone needs to get the shot. Much of that other work can be done by the logistics / distribution of the armed forces. The actual shot is a very small part of the vaccination process.

There are also nurses in the military. There are paramedics in the miltary. There are doctors in the military --- including all the reserve units.

Might make sense for people to educate themselves on what our army resources look like, and what our reservists look like, as well as what is required, prior to being critical of the concept.

 

[Waterfall]

I think people are presuming that there wouldn't be public health engaged in the vaccine.

When I went to get tested for COVID, public health was doing everything from registry to testing.

Picture the vaccine:
It has to come in, it has to be distributed, it has to have people being advised that they can get it, it has to have controls at the vaccination site. Actually, the vaccination sites need to be setup. People who are working need support. At some point, someone needs to get the shot. Much of that other work can be done by the logistics / distribution of the armed forces. The actual shot is a very small part of the vaccination process.

There are also nurses in the military. There are paramedics in the miltary. There are doctors in the military --- including all the reserve units.

Might make sense for people to educate themselves on what our army resources look like, and what our reservists look like, as well as what is required, prior to being critical of the concept.

How many doctors and nurses are in the military? We dont really have a large military in Canada.
Can you tell us what is required?