Covid 19 Vaccine

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Waterfall

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Let's talk about the Covid 19 Vaccine soon to be available from Moderna and Pfizer Pharmaceuticals.
 

Waterfall

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Will you be getting the vaccine when it becomes available?
Why or why not?
 

Mendalla

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Just to be clear, you are talking about 2 vaccines there.

Pfizer co-developed one with German biotech firm BioNtech and will be the distributor for it.

Moderna developed the other one.

Assuming the phase 3 data holds up to what we have seen so far and there are no problems in early rollout, yes I will. I am technically high risk and definitely accept the science around vaccination. Vaccination definitely opens the door to at least breathing a little easier even if I still keep up best practices until I know the vaccination rate has reached a good level in this area.
 

Waterfall

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Just to be clear, you are talking about 2 vaccines there.

Pfizer co-developed one with German biotech firm BioNtech and will be the distributor for it.

Moderna developed the other one.

Assuming the phase 3 data holds up to what we have seen so far and there are no problems in early rollout, yes I will. I am technically high risk and definitely accept the science around vaccination. Vaccination definitely opens the door to at least breathing a little easier even if I still keep up best practices until I know the vaccination rate has reached a good level in this area.
How do you feel about the fact that the trials did not use anyone that were not in good health?
 

Mendalla

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How do you feel about the fact that the trials did not use anyone that were not in good health?
Doesn't really affect me. I am in generally good health. My risk comes from being diabetic, but that is controlled.

However, yes, I would have liked to have seen more numbers from people with health conditions. Pfizer did release numbers today showing it to be effective in seniors so that's a good start.

However, to do a full, proper vaccine trial, we are looking at years, not months, and I don't think anyone will tolerate the current state of affairs for that long. We are already seeing signs of "pandemic fatigue" and I suspect that if we don't have vaccination underway by this time next year, you'll have a fair number of people saying, "F--- it. Let's try for herd immunity." In this case, the vaccine rollout will also be an extended stage 3, I suspect.

Again, though, if these effectiveness and safety numbers (or at least very good ones) continue to hold, I am in.
 

Carolla

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It will be interesting to see how the government prioritizes distribution & administration of the vaccines.

Personally, it feels a little rushed to me - yes effectiveness has been demonstrated, but we don't know anything about longer term effects/safety - or even how long the immunity will last - it's just too soon to know any of this. So I probably won't push my way to the front of the line.
 

ChemGal

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I don't think the Pfizer one is going to be able to be distributed widely. Doing Healthcare workers or something like that may work. The general public especially outside of major centers? No.

As for getting it myself. I think this is one where the benefit is worth having to treat some HAE attacks. I am still a bit nervous in general though due to my messed up immune system. It very much depends on when I could access. One of the first I wouldn't feel super comfortable about not knowing risks and probably wouldn't fit in there anyway. Will have to discuss with doctors when more is known. Ideal would be herd immunity from others getting it but that will likely leave me to open to COVID too long.
 

Waterfall

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Vaccines from both companies use messenger RNA vaccines. This is a new technology that has never been used in any vaccines before. It is the reason these vaccines have to be kept super cold with dry ice.....if they are kept warm for too long the RNA breaks down and would render the vaccine ineffective.
The vaccines consist of genetic instructions on how to make the modified spike protein from SARS-Covid-2, the coronavirus that causes Covid 19.
The genes are encoded in mRNA and packaged in lipid nanoparticles. Once the vaccine is injected into the body, human cells use the instructions to make copies of the spike protein for the immune system to learn to recognize.
These two types of vaccine produced by Moderna and Pfizer does not contain any virus or viral proteins, which means it can't cause a real infection.
There are some other teams around the world that are working on using live, weakened live viruses, dead or inactivated viruses, or live viruses, but not the Moderna or Pfizer ones.
 

ChemGal

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Vaccines from both companies use messenger RNA vaccines. This is a new technology that has never been used in any vaccines before. It is the reason these vaccines have to be kept super cold with dry ice.....if they are kept warm for too long the RNA breaks down and would render the vaccine ineffective.
The vaccines consist of genetic instructions on how to make the modified spike protein from SARS-Covid-2, the coronavirus that causes Covid 19.
The genes are encoded in mRNA and packaged in lipid nanoparticles. Once the vaccine is injected into the body, human cells use the instructions to make copies of the spike protein for the immune system to learn to recognize.
These two types of vaccine produced by Moderna and Pfizer does not contain any virus or viral proteins, which means it can't cause a real infection.
There are some other teams around the world that are working on using live, weakened live viruses, dead or inactivated viruses, or live viruses, but not the Moderna or Pfizer ones.
The Moderna one doesn't need to be kept super cold it's a big advantage.
 

Waterfall

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It will be interesting to see how the government prioritizes distribution & administration of the vaccines.

Personally, it feels a little rushed to me - yes effectiveness has been demonstrated, but we don't know anything about longer term effects/safety - or even how long the immunity will last - it's just too soon to know any of this. So I probably won't push my way to the front of the line.
They seem to be focusing on the elderly first.....the very group that hasn't responded well with the seasonal flu vaccine over the last 30 years, which is why it's dosage was increased. Of course this vaccine seems to be a "novel" kind of vaccine. (read the mRNA nanotechnology above) I suppose because it's the elderly affected the most so far they reason they should be first.
I'm with you about this whole thing feeling a little rushed! Trial periods are greatly reduced and emergency approvals would be needed.....
 

Waterfall

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The Moderna one doesn't need to be kept super cold it's a big advantage.
Moderna's is kept at -20C and Pfizers is -70C
Moderna says it can survive for a month in a refrigerator and in a freezer at -20C for months.

Pfizer's can be kept in refrigerator for 5 days and needs to be kept at -70C for longer term storage, according to BioNtech's CEO.

Transportation will require special equipment and specially trained people to care for these vaccines.....especially in countries with hot weather.
 

ChemGal

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They seem to be focusing on the elderly first.....the very group that hasn't responded well with the seasonal flu vaccine over the last 30 years, which is why it's dosage was increased. Of course this vaccine seems to be a "novel" kind of vaccine. (read the mRNA nanotechnology above) I suppose because it's the elderly affected the most so far they reason they should be first.
I'm with you about this whole thing feeling a little rushed! Trial periods are greatly reduced and emergency approvals would be needed.....
I think putting them in the very first group isn't a great idea unless we see they respond well in terms of immunity. Sure this is different than injecting proteins but their immune response still might not be great and the more vulnerable the worse it likely is. Those working in long term care homes being in the first group might give a greater effect when only able to vaccinate a small number soon to start.
 

ChemGal

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Moderna's is kept at -20C and Pfizers is -70C
Moderna says it can survive for a month in a refrigerator and in a freezer at -20C for months.

Pfizer's can be kept in refrigerator for 5 days and needs to be kept at -70C for longer term storage, according to BioNtech's CEO.
And -20C freezers are fairly common. -80C are rather heavy and we can't easily access those in large quantities. Most lab rooms I was in had multiple freeers whereas the department maybe had 10 -80 total. There's also the issue with the logistics of ensuring it's not being opened too many times. I can see that going well in areas where they are used to dealing with those sort of things. There's a lot of screwups in healthcare so getting this cross Canada I'm more skeptical in trusting having enough responsible people.
 

Waterfall

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I think putting them in the very first group isn't a great idea unless we see they respond well in terms of immunity. Sure this is different than injecting proteins but their immune response still might not be great and the more vulnerable the worse it likely is. Those working in long term care homes being in the first group might give a greater effect when only able to vaccinate a small number soon to start.
I believe the health care workers will be included, BUT that order could change over time. It's probably a wait and see to know for sure.
 

ChemGal

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I believe the health care workers will be included, BUT that order could change over time. It's probably a wait and see to know for sure.
Long term care workers aren't always included with healthcare workers.
 

Waterfall

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And -20C freezers are fairly common. -80C are rather heavy and we can't easily access those in large quantities. Most lab rooms I was in had multiple freeers whereas the department maybe had 10 -80 total. There's also the issue with the logistics of ensuring it's not being opened too many times. I can see that going well in areas where they are used to dealing with those sort of things. There's a lot of screwups in healthcare so getting this cross Canada I'm more skeptical in trusting having enough responsible people.
Moderna's does sound better. I noticed Pfizer seemed to change it's affectiveness rate from 90% to 95% after Moderna announced there's was 94.5% effective. I suppose there's a race to lock in government contracts before the other.
 

Mendalla

Agnostic pan(en)theist gorilla
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It is the reason these vaccines have to be kept super cold with dry ice.....if they are kept warm for too long the RNA breaks down and would render the vaccine ineffective.
Nope, that's only Pfizer. Moderna can be stored at -20 and in a fridge for up to a month per their release early this week. That gives them an edge for vaccinating the general populace. Pfizer might be better suited to hospitals where labs may actually have the necessary freezers.
 

Mendalla

Agnostic pan(en)theist gorilla
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Moderna's does sound better. I noticed Pfizer seemed to change it's affectiveness rate from 90% to 95% after Moderna announced there's was 94.5% effective. I suppose there's a race to lock in government contracts before the other.
I cocked my eyebrow at that, too, but I am sure they would say it is just additional data or something. There is supposed to be an independent review of the data as part of the FDA approval process so we will see what comes next.
 
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