What Do You Know About Islam?

[Delightful Life]

But, like what people have determined are the fundementals of Christianity (some would say that the fundementals of Christianity are "love God...and like unto it...love your neighbour, but others would say it's all about opposing same sex marriage and that only men can be preachers in church, and that the bible is to be read literally, they tend to be the loudest, unfortunately - doesn't make them right) - moderate Muslims need to define, or redefine, for the world, the fundementals - what's important to their faith. Those are the fundamentals. They are a choice.

Kimmio,


a few examples of how people can be concerned regard 'fundamentals of islam'
Saudi Arabia school textbooks include chapters justifying the killing of apostates.

In 2010 Pew research found that some %84 of Egyptian muslims believe in death for apostates.

There is a part of Jordan's penal code that an apostate, if convicted, can be imprisoned, all their property taken away from them, seize their inheritance & send them to prison.

There are more examples. If I were to categorize the Paris shooters as an outlier, then I'd have to also look at other countries, at what seems to be the majority or normal view; and then compare them and go 'ok, why do I consider the Paris incident as an outlier, yet what Saudi Arabia teaches to its kids as not?'

There are good reasons why people are concerned aboot immigration as well.

You have to be able to face these facts, *especially* those that makes you uncomfortable.

If you ever have a chance, to larn more, go try and find Howard Bloom's "The Mohammad Code" -- you'll come to understand more of what's going on, the history, the beliefs, the politics, even the biology of it all (oh, and you might also want to check out his The Lucifer Principle, which also gives more history, politics, psychology, more info than you can throw a East Van cat at...)

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Kimmio,


a few examples
Saudi Arabia school textbooks include chapters justifying the killing of apostates.

In 2010 Pew research found that some %84 of Egyptian muslims believe in death for apostates.

There is a part of Jordan's penal code that an apostate, if convicted, can be imprisoned, all their property taken away from them, seize their inheritance & send them to prison.

There are more examples. If I were to categorize the Paris shooters as an outlier, then I'd have to also look at other countries, at what seems to be the majority or normal view; and then compare them and go 'ok, why do I consider the Paris incident as an outlier, yet what Saudi Arabia teaches to its kids as not?'

There are good reasons why people are concerned aboot immigration as well.

You have to be able to face these facts, *especially* those that makes you uncomfortable.

I never said I approve of what Saudi Arabia teaches - no doubt what people learn in school is a huge part of the problem. I said that the Muslims who see through it, here in the west, and they do exist, would do well to speak up. Look at the "guns n' God" creationists down south. The guns n' God thing combined with anti-science and economic disparity is a dangerous combination. For the Saudis, it's not about economic disparity. Following the strict laws keeps them materially comfortable so why would they protest in their own country? They have it all and more there, materially - they have luxury, western style. Women have protested - because they are the ones being oppressed in that context. They can ride in their husbands' Mercedes - but they can't drive their own. That's what they're protesting. It's not about religion, but about economic equality.

There was an article in Huffpost yesterday about the economic disparity of Muslims in Paris and he felt that was a big part of the problem that contributed these recent attacks. I don't know the socioeconomics of Paris well enough have a strong opinion, but he seemed to feel there was a correlation between the extremist views of this individuals and their coming from marginalized neighbourhoods.

 

[Delightful Life]

I never said I approve of what Saudi Arabia teaches - no doubt what people learn in school is a huge part of the problem. I said that the Muslims who see through it, here in the west, and they do exist, would do well to speak up. Look at the "guns n' God" creationists down south. The guns n' God thing combined with anti-science and economic disparity is a dangerous combination. For the Saudis, it's not about economic disparity. Following the strict laws keeps them materially comfortable so why would they protest in their own country? They have it all and more there, materially - they have luxury, western style. Women have protested - because they are the ones being oppressed in that context. They can ride in their husbands' Mercedes - but they can't drive their own. That's what they're protesting. It's not about religion, but about economic equality.

There was an article in Huffpost yesterday about the economic disparity of Muslims in Paris and he felt that was a big part of the problem that contributed these recent attacks. I don't know the socioeconomics of Paris well enough have a strong opinion, but he seemed to feel there was a correlation between the extremist views of this individuals and their coming from marginalized neighbourhoods.

Yuppers,
just pointing out that

part of the problem is not necessarily the Islamic fundamentalists, but the fundamentals of Islam (with apologies to Sam Harris). They have scriptural backing for what they are doing to Raif Badawi. They have scriptural reasons for not letting women drive, or be found alone with a man who is not their husband.

we outsider people have to be able to deal with that without getting all trigger-y with 'omg, RACISM!' or giving into 'all religions are inherently awesome' or categorizing the murder of editors as an extremist act while at the same time not considering 84% of Egyptians believing its okie dokie to murder apostates as 'not extremist' and 'not average'

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

What the Saudis are learning is coming from a theocracy that keeps them comfortable, and loyal. I understand that is what's happening. The culture of accepting the dress code and curfews etc. came from trading off human rights, and that being taken as "piety" - a large scale distortion. Then, what happens if you grow up believing you have all this stuff because you are pious for following the religious teachings of your government - that they say is "fundemental" and then move to a place where you have tons of personal freedoms but no money and limited economic opportunity...and they've been taught to respond to disagreements through violence? So, again, Muslims who see through this - who believe in peaceful solutions and human rights - that what the extremists are being taught is not pious, it is a distortion of their faith which is about theocratic control, need to speak up against this extremist violence - and offer a better way.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

The Golden Rule at the core of all major religions is inherently awesome.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

"Christ" (means salvation) is at the core of all major religions. That's it. Christ is the Golden rule. Christ is the Spirit of that rule. Jesus was the man who proclaimed it. There's nothing to fight over but we've been fighting over it for Millenia - who was Jesus, did he exist, was he really born of a virgin, did he walk on water, did he heal the blind, did he rise from the tomb? Yes, he did. In the stories. Whether he "really" did or not is not worth fighting about. He could have (say some quantum physicists). But that's not what's important now. He knew people would fight and fight until we get sick of the fighting, until we finally "get it". The more and more people of all faiths "get" that it is the Golden Rule that is fundemental, the more it lays the ground work for peace - it brings peace and healing to the Nations as it's practiced (the allegory of the "return" of Christ personified in real time) - and it doesn't matter if you are a Muslim, Jew, Christian, Buddhist, Hindhu, Atheist Humanist as long as we "get it". I just won't give up Christianity and the bible because I can see this conclusion in there - at some point it will all work out. I have faith. I don't expect everyone to call themselves Christian either - but I think Muslims too can, and need to, teach that the Golden Rule is central to their faith as well - the rest is socio-cultural commentary to learn from. Just as the bible is cultural commentary to learn from - even if it means learning what not to do!

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Phew...I haven't written one of those "sermons" (my husband calls them), otherwise known as riffs, in a long time!

In other words "why can't everybody just get along"?

 

[Hermann]

It is difficult to get along if one is firmly convinced that one is right, and the other person is wrong.

Moreover, the Golden Rule needs to be amended. We should treat others as they wish to be treated, not as we wish to be treated.


The most important thing to be is wrong.

-From The Importance Of Being Wrong by Hermann

 

[Waterfall]

Moreover, the Golden Rule needs to be amended. We should treat others as they wish to be treated, not as we wish to be treated.

How would we know this?

 

[Waterfall]

"Christ" (means salvation) is at the core of all major religions. That's it. Christ is the Golden rule. Christ is the Spirit of that rule. Jesus was the man who proclaimed it. There's nothing to fight over but we've been fighting over it for Millenia - who was Jesus, did he exist, was he really born of a virgin, did he walk on water, did he heal the blind, did he rise from the tomb? Yes, he did. In the stories. Whether he "really" did or not is not worth fighting about. He could have (say some quantum physicists). But that's not what's important now. He knew people would fight and fight until we get sick of the fighting, until we finally "get it". The more and more people of all faiths "get" that it is the Golden Rule that is fundemental, the more it lays the ground work for peace - it brings peace and healing to the Nations as it's practiced (the allegory of the "return" of Christ personified in real time) - and it doesn't matter if you are a Muslim, Jew, Christian, Buddhist, Hindhu, Atheist Humanist as long as we "get it". I just won't give up Christianity and the bible because I can see this conclusion in there - at some point it will all work out. I have faith. I don't expect everyone to call themselves Christian either - but I think Muslims too can, and need to, teach that the Golden Rule is central to their faith as well - the rest is socio-cultural commentary to learn from. Just as the bible is cultural commentary to learn from - even if it means learning what not to do!

I would think Kimmio, that because Jesus is one of their prophets, they would also have "a golden rule". Even Mohammed taught a form of it. Jesus is probably more consistent with it, whereas Mohammed can appear contradictory at times. Just my opinion.

 

[Waterfall]

Kimmio,


a few examples of how people can be concerned regard 'fundamentals of islam'
Saudi Arabia school textbooks include chapters justifying the killing of apostates.

In 2010 Pew research found that some %84 of Egyptian muslims believe in death for apostates.

There is a part of Jordan's penal code that an apostate, if convicted, can be imprisoned, all their property taken away from them, seize their inheritance & send them to prison.

There are more examples. If I were to categorize the Paris shooters as an outlier, then I'd have to also look at other countries, at what seems to be the majority or normal view; and then compare them and go 'ok, why do I consider the Paris incident as an outlier, yet what Saudi Arabia teaches to its kids as not?'

There are good reasons why people are concerned aboot immigration as well.

You have to be able to face these facts, *especially* those that makes you uncomfortable.

If you ever have a chance, to larn more, go try and find Howard Bloom's "The Mohammad Code" -- you'll come to understand more of what's going on, the history, the beliefs, the politics, even the biology of it all (oh, and you might also want to check out his The Lucifer Principle, which also gives more history, politics, psychology, more info than you can throw a East Van cat at...)

84% of Egyptian Muslims believe in death to the apostates?

Here's a fascinating poll from the Pew Forum:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/t...ews-on-suicide-bombings-and-fear-of-islamism/


Keeping the above statistics in mind, I think we should always be aware that it only takes a small minority to affect how the majority will be perceived. And it is often these small radical fundamentalist cells that garner the attention and cause the chaos. Christianity is not immune to these "radicals" ,as are many other religions. It seems the religion becomes one of their hostages also.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I would think Kimmio, that because Jesus is one of their prophets, they would also have "a golden rule". Even Mohammed taught a form of it. Jesus is probably more consistent with it, whereas Mohammed can appear contradictory at times. Just my opinion.

Yes, and I was saying that if the golden rule were the only "fundemental".... I don't think there would be violent or harmful religious extremism. The problem is, that different denominations/ sects (including within Christianity) choose different "fundementals" to focus on that have nothing to do with the golden rule, as the central focus of their faith.

 

[Delightful Life]

84% of Egyptian Muslims believe in death to the apostates?

Here's a fascinating poll from the Pew Forum:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/t...ews-on-suicide-bombings-and-fear-of-islamism/


Keeping the above statistics in mind, I think we should always be aware that it only takes a small minority to affect how the majority will be perceived. And it is often these small radical fundamentalist cells that garner the attention and cause the chaos. Christianity is not immune to these "radicals" ,as are many other religions. It seems the religion becomes one of their hostages also.

The Pew Forum is AWESOME! Real data from the horse's mouth :3

The 84% of Egyptians etc I got from the Pew Forum as well. There's a lot of awesome data there.

Just a ferinstance of if 84% of Egyptians believe that way, that sounds mainstream (in the context of Egypt) and not 'radical'/an outlier/a minority, in answer to Kimmio's discussion with chansen.

Here's another cool one:
"does religious belief promote religious scapegoating?"
over 10,000 people were in this study in multiple countries
http://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~anlab/pdf/Hansen&NorenzayanScapegoating.pdf

catholics & orthodox & atheists have the highest tendency of scapegoating (which is also correlated with dogmatism, inflexibility of belief & commitment to violence); buddhists, hindus & muslims were the lowest

more awesomesauce! i love how you that will read that will change from the nuanced study to 'all atheists are this way' or perhaps 'all theists are that way' -- oh, the beauty of BS :3 be ware your various fan club tribalisms!

oh, and for graeme, i have a link to a list of s'more pretty cool 'alternative media' sources ('real media'?) from this site http://www.geopoliticsandcognition.com/

he should click here for the list http://www.geopoliticsandcognition.com/GeopoliticsAtHome.html

 

[Delightful Life]

just a note being 'you' in the sense of readers of the post, not wonderfall in particular

we are a marvy species, full of vim and pep

 

[Hermann]

How would we know this?

Simple. Ask them.

 

[jimkenney12]

To expand on Hermann's answer, build relationships with them so we can understand how they want to be treated. To me, the main focus of the ministry of Jesus was relationships: with God, others and self. Care enough about them to really get to know them.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Simple. Ask them.

Always treat others the way they want to be treated - can you foresee any problem with that, with extremists or those with abusive demands? I can. And I can see how acquiescing to that can affect ones relationship with onesself @jimkenney12 .

The thing about loving others as yourself, is it reflects empathy without complete selflessness.

 

[Seeler]

Abraham submitted to God , he wasn't a Muslim

Abraham is looked upon as the father of the Hebrew religion. Both Christianity and Islam have their roots in the Abrahamic religion.
Therefore both Christians and Muslims could claim Abraham.
But, since Abraham lived centuries before Jesus life on earth which resulted in the Christian religion, Abraham was not Christian;
and, since Abraham lived centuries before the prophet Mohammad and the beginning of the Islam religion, Abraham was not Muslim.

 

[Luce NDs]

Is that a'bra ham or what "Ham" being a Hebrew dark Pi encompassing all ... this big brother as the Shadow is still other ... being out there ... watching us at the centre of the spectre ... everything's lab?

If wee folk are at there centre of the disturbance ... should we be humble or just are and don't know it ... didn't wish to know the gno-ems and's elves buried there as Miss Ogi Nous in the word. Where else hide the poor deflated soul ... and doesn't strange physics and metaphysics scare people into hateful responses? From outliers this would be outrage in the dark Ness ... thus it chi-meres ... like pyre over the wa' Terres, rifts in the landos ("Os" is Hebrew power thus the bone to pick). ID could be pure allegory as god said he would send a sign ... many powers can't see love as god at loose ends ... so god is made to spin ... thus the vert-egoes! Sometimes known as upright ETs for the powers to hack at ... like mental logs, or report from history as hidden?

Everything is capable of funny things ... the English referred to eM as dark humours or bloody odd brutes ... and followed tout suite! Imitation is ... in the act of sublimation ... like but not as Isis .. would we condense as a snow flake out there or just a wise old stinker in the hidden domains of PEW or Po'?

 

[Hermann]

Abraham is looked upon as the father of the Hebrew religion. Both Christianity and Islam have their roots in the Abrahamic religion.
Therefore both Christians and Muslims could claim Abraham.
But, since Abraham lived centuries before Jesus life on earth which resulted in the Christian religion, Abraham was not Christian;
and, since Abraham lived centuries before the prophet Mohammad and the beginning of the Islam religion, Abraham was not Muslim.

He wasn't a Jew, either. According to the story, he came from Uruk, Mesopotamia, the same place that the Gilgamesh of the ancient epic came from and was king of. Uruk was the first civilized city on our planet, and to some historians it was the birthplace of human civilization. This was long before there was a Jewish religion.

I think Abraham is a legendary or mythological rather than a historical figure, and his descent from Uruk is symbolic of the Abrahamic religions as civilized, to set themselves apart from to the wild Pagan nature religions that were prevalent at the time.