revsdd
Well-Known Member
Healing and healing prayer are different things. Healing prayer and anointing can be offered by anyone.
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Yes. It the same as, say, the gift of evangelism and the practice of evangelism. Or the gift of prophecy and the practice of presenting Christ.
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
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- He/Him/His
Doing new things in anything is a necessity, else stagnation happens. And some things that @crazyheart likes and thinks are important in worship were probably new to someone at some point.
revsdd
Well-Known Member
Some congregation somewhere sang "Amazing Grace" for the first time. And some people complained, "but we don't know that one."
Not to mention the uproar that happened when some folks first wanted to start adding in "My Chains are Gone."
crazyheart
Rest In Peace: tomorrow,tomorrow
@Mendalla and @revsdd ' it is not what I like or what I think is important in worship.
I have read evaluation forms and other means of commenting on worship. I have found
that it is not that the people do not want these changes, it is that introducing them, imo, has to be
done slowly. Slowly and surely wins the race. It took ten years at the church that I was appointed
to do many different things, keep the children in the service, have children participate in
communion, have congregation feel confident to laugh and yes, cry and be touched in their soul,
and even dance in worship. Education was imperative- strong Christian Development and worship
committee working in tandem.
Not something new, like the healing that was introduced into the first closing worship of
the Annual mttg. Respectfully, again, MPO.
I have read evaluation forms and other means of commenting on worship. I have found
that it is not that the people do not want these changes, it is that introducing them, imo, has to be
done slowly. Slowly and surely wins the race. It took ten years at the church that I was appointed
to do many different things, keep the children in the service, have children participate in
communion, have congregation feel confident to laugh and yes, cry and be touched in their soul,
and even dance in worship. Education was imperative- strong Christian Development and worship
committee working in tandem.
Not something new, like the healing that was introduced into the first closing worship of
the Annual mttg. Respectfully, again, MPO.
revsdd
Well-Known Member
You know how I introduced healing? Without asking anyone for permission. I just decided to offer it one Sunday. I didn't know if anyone would want it. I worried how people would react. 20 people came forward. It became a huge part of our ministry. The minister who succeeded me told me that the Search Committee told her that whatever she did she had to continue the anointing - and several of them were not among those who came forward for it.
Ten years? To get children in the service and participating in Communion? To get the congregation to laugh, etc. Let's just say that's not my style, and I've been at this for almost 25 years and am now on my fourth successful pastoral relationship.
Ten years? To get children in the service and participating in Communion? To get the congregation to laugh, etc. Let's just say that's not my style, and I've been at this for almost 25 years and am now on my fourth successful pastoral relationship.
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
For many churches, there is no longer time for slowly and surely. The minister who took over at my UU fellowship took Steven's approach - she just did things and changed things. Did it cause an uproar at times? Sure. It probably led to her premature departure, in fact. I was on worship and supported her. We didn't turn back and the liturgy of today owes more to her changes than to the status quo prior to her.
crazyheart
Rest In Peace: tomorrow,tomorrow
This church was the most orthodox United Church in the city- old families, lots of money. Remember I started 1/3 time
and then 1/2 time. Ministers that I partnered with were always ordained, always men. Nothing changed in years.
The last one was a bully and I became a victim.
I still can't talk about it and that is when I as staff could have used a healing service.
sorry Steven, it is too painful. I will leave this conversation. It has been good Thank you.
and then 1/2 time. Ministers that I partnered with were always ordained, always men. Nothing changed in years.
The last one was a bully and I became a victim.
I still can't talk about it and that is when I as staff could have used a healing service.
sorry Steven, it is too painful. I will leave this conversation. It has been good Thank you.
Seeler
Well-Known Member
Crazyheart,I remember when we first met on the original WC, we talked about our similar experiences being bullied and forced out. Yes, it still hurts. Fortunately I found another congregation, where I am now, and my gifts and contributions were appreciated.
I agree with you that sometimes changes have to be done slowly to avoid annoying (or hurting) people - and to make sure that they are right for the congregation. My church is quietly and at a snail's pace modifying our Remembrance Sunday observations. I think it will take the death of our last WW2 veteran before they fade away.
By the way, I've been asked for the first time to lead worship in my home church. Both our ministers will be away for separate reasons, and despite the fact that we have about a dozen retired clergy in our congregation, I've been invited. It will be the largest church where I've lead the service - going from little country churches with a couple of dozen worshipers to one with 150 +. I'm invited for Peace Sunday - Oct. 22nd. I don't think I would have accepted if it were Remembrance. I can do 'peace'. I hope.
I agree with you that sometimes changes have to be done slowly to avoid annoying (or hurting) people - and to make sure that they are right for the congregation. My church is quietly and at a snail's pace modifying our Remembrance Sunday observations. I think it will take the death of our last WW2 veteran before they fade away.
By the way, I've been asked for the first time to lead worship in my home church. Both our ministers will be away for separate reasons, and despite the fact that we have about a dozen retired clergy in our congregation, I've been invited. It will be the largest church where I've lead the service - going from little country churches with a couple of dozen worshipers to one with 150 +. I'm invited for Peace Sunday - Oct. 22nd. I don't think I would have accepted if it were Remembrance. I can do 'peace'. I hope.
And Piece be with you as a small spark of insight ... some say visceral and deep ... due to layers and layers of hide meant to cover the soul from the flash ... sometimes found in the market place as Streak ... or some Hadassah as bazaar ... the rest follows ... as tapestry of lofe ... much displace, eliminated and forgotten by excess passions ...
Ah the darkness of the core values ... heartland ... without a clue as why the beating goes on ...on may feel beat at the end ... thus the Seder ... something to rest?
Ah the darkness of the core values ... heartland ... without a clue as why the beating goes on ...on may feel beat at the end ... thus the Seder ... something to rest?
revsdd
Well-Known Member
You're absolutely right that people shouldn't be bullied. But change also can't be delayed out of fear that not everybody's "ready" for it.
When I interned, my supervisor (a very experienced minister and former Personnel Minister who had done his share of working with congregations and ministers in conflict) told me that what I would hear most frequently is that you have to wait until you've been at a congregation for at least five years before you've built up enough trust to make changes. He disagreed. He said that changes have to be made in the first year or two of a new ministry. People know there's a new minister; they know that not everything will be the same and they know there will be changes. They're prepared for that, at least subconsciously. But if you wait longer than that you run the risk of settling in to the "familiar" yourself, so that nothing of substance ever really changes. Having followed up a few years ago with a doctorate that dealt at least in part with churches experiencing conflict, I tend to agree that change needs to happen sooner rather than later in a new ministry.
Having said that - it should never be "bullied" or "forced." The congregation and its leaders need a chance to decide whether it works. That's why we have elders - except, of course, that most elders in the United Church have little concept of what eldership is all about, but that's a discussion for a different place.
I'll go back to my experience of introducing healing prayer and anointing in my last church. I simply decided to do it. I didn't ask for permission. I understood the dynamic of congregations. If you ask for permission - it will have to be discussed, and studied, and we'll seek feedback, and somebody "important" won't like it, and we can't upset that "important" person, so we won't make the change, etc., etc. So I just did it. But then - having done it - I took it back to the Worship Committee. Had I gone to the Worship Committee before even trying it, it probably wouldn't have happened - because they'd have been uncomfortable with it. They'd have said, "it's not our style." At the very least it probably would have taken ten years of consultation and education and preparation before it could have been done. But after introducing it in a service, I asked them about it. What did they think? How did it feel? Well, 20 people had come forward at that service. (If I had announced a special healing service on a Saturday night, or a gathering in the chapel after Sunday service I doubt that 20 would have come - but because I did it at the end of the regular Sunday service, inviting people who were already there to come forward during the closing hymn, they came.) And that was a significant chunk (about 15% of attenders on that Sunday) who had come forward, thus expressing that this met a need for them. The roof hadn't collapsed. God hadn't sent a lightning bolt. NO ONE QUIT! It was really different and maybe uncomfortable for some - but - wow - it was OK. They could have said that 85% of the congregation obviously wasn't interested and might be uncomfortable with it so we should stop it. Instead, they showed spiritual maturity (like the man I mentioned who spoke to me) by acknowledging that they had to pay less attention to the 85% who didn't take part to meet the expressed need of the 15% who did take part. I'm not sure I was ever prouder of a church committee than I was of that Worship Committee when they made that decision.
My advice - never wait for people to be "onside" before you try something new. Try it once or twice - then ask people to evaluate it having seen it. If they're still unalterably opposed, then you can't keep pushing it, but actually trying it is the only way you're going to be sure if there's a need for it among the congregation.
GeoFee
I am who I am becoming...
Hi,
These are thoughts shared with a gathering of persons of the Steinbach United Church. It was nice to see the folk after a summer's absence. They are friends and companions along the way. My speech is ordered to engage their personal imaginations, in the hope of a decisive decision, for the way of God revealed in the stories about Jesus told by the Holy Spirit. A way beckoning each and all to a reconsideration of priority and commitment.
Here is what the folk heard:
George
These are thoughts shared with a gathering of persons of the Steinbach United Church. It was nice to see the folk after a summer's absence. They are friends and companions along the way. My speech is ordered to engage their personal imaginations, in the hope of a decisive decision, for the way of God revealed in the stories about Jesus told by the Holy Spirit. A way beckoning each and all to a reconsideration of priority and commitment.
Here is what the folk heard:
George
crazyheart
Rest In Peace: tomorrow,tomorrow
Delightful Life
M&M, Cascadian Lovers
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revsdd
Well-Known Member
Being still on vacation today we went to St. Paul's Presbyterian Church in Oshawa this morning. My daughter had been invited to be the guest flutist by the music director there so it was a chance to worship without leading. Aside from the brilliant flute music 
it was a pretty standard Presbyterian service. Some of the hymns I wasn't too familiar with, but that was fine. I picked them up easily enough. I stumbled as we sang the Lord's Prayer. I sang "trespasses" while they were singing "debtors" causing me to stop and then figure out what seemed off and get myself in sync with them. They're reading responsively through some sort of Presbyterian statement of faith. All four readings from the lectionary were read, but the sermon (from Rev. Lois Whitwell) focused on the Gospel reading (Matthew 16:21-28.) She offered an interesting take on the idea that we have to take up our cross - suggesting that taking up our cross doesn't mean dealing with the random struggles we sometimes have to face (natural disasters, health crises, conflicts, etc.) but rather with actively choosing to engage in a struggle or cause that we could have chosen to avoid. Decent service and a very friendly congregation made up mostly of seniors. I talked to Rev. Whitwell after the service and she acknowledged that it's a seniors' congregation (no children or Sunday School or young families) but that they've embraced the idea that their calling is to have a ministry directed specifically at seniors. I appreciated hearing that, because with all the focus on youth in the church I often think we devalue seniors and outreach ministry to them.
it was a pretty standard Presbyterian service. Some of the hymns I wasn't too familiar with, but that was fine. I picked them up easily enough. I stumbled as we sang the Lord's Prayer. I sang "trespasses" while they were singing "debtors" causing me to stop and then figure out what seemed off and get myself in sync with them. They're reading responsively through some sort of Presbyterian statement of faith. All four readings from the lectionary were read, but the sermon (from Rev. Lois Whitwell) focused on the Gospel reading (Matthew 16:21-28.) She offered an interesting take on the idea that we have to take up our cross - suggesting that taking up our cross doesn't mean dealing with the random struggles we sometimes have to face (natural disasters, health crises, conflicts, etc.) but rather with actively choosing to engage in a struggle or cause that we could have chosen to avoid. Decent service and a very friendly congregation made up mostly of seniors. I talked to Rev. Whitwell after the service and she acknowledged that it's a seniors' congregation (no children or Sunday School or young families) but that they've embraced the idea that their calling is to have a ministry directed specifically at seniors. I appreciated hearing that, because with all the focus on youth in the church I often think we devalue seniors and outreach ministry to them.
You just never know
Blip, blip, blip....
Guest speaker today was Jill. She spoke of having been raised by 2 athiest parents and always having had a belief in God. She spoke of trying different religions and different denominations and finally finding a home in the United church where she was not condemned for being in a same-sex relationship. Glad she found a home where she can explore her spiritual and sexual natures without condemnation.
Seeler
Well-Known Member
Church today was so/so. Our last Sunday of shared services aand although the service was at our church, the new young minister from our sister congregation presided and preached. She seems pleasant enough (her little boy is a sweetheart and her husband is obviously a 'dad') but she isn't a gifted speaker and neither Seeleerman and I got much from the message. I'll be glad to get back to our regular worship next week.
The highlights for me occurred after the formal service, while we were sharing community/coffee time. I greeted an old friend who has been at the cottage for the summer. And I noticed that besides the minister's husband there were quite a few men being 'dads'. One man was actually wearing his tiny month-old daughter in a sling on his chest.
The highlights for me occurred after the formal service, while we were sharing community/coffee time. I greeted an old friend who has been at the cottage for the summer. And I noticed that besides the minister's husband there were quite a few men being 'dads'. One man was actually wearing his tiny month-old daughter in a sling on his chest.
Good service yesterday at my home church. The pastor spoke from Daniel about King Nebuchadnezzar and how anyone can turn their life over to God. Good music led by the worship team. The service also included the ordinance of Communion, a testimony from one of our oldest members, and a special prayer time for teachers and we students. Afterwards, I met the new Youth Leader (someone I was once in a university class with), and the pastor and I hit McD for Junior Chickens and $1 sodas.