My tab includes unlimited texting - unlimited data - and unlimited long distance within Ontario. My wife pays $40/month + tax - and she gets same plus very low cost international long distance [which she primarily uses to chat with her family and friends in South Korea].
Giving to PanHandlers
- Thread starter Seeler
- Start date
Welcome to Wondercafe2!
A community where we discuss, share, and have some fun together. Join today and become a part of it!
My tab includes unlimited texting - unlimited data - and unlimited long distance within Ontario. My wife pays $40/month + tax - and she gets same plus very low cost international long distance [which she primarily uses to chat with her family and friends in South Korea].
Beloved
Well-Known Member
I think there are genuinely poor, down-and-out, people who seek the help of others on the street . . . and either for health, mental issues, or social issues, are unable to work. They are the "homeless" . . . and survive on the good-will of others, and organizations.
And then, I think there are those that have the health, skills, and emotionally stability, to be able to find a job and keep a job, but they prefer the carefree lifestyle of a panhandler.
And there are those who panhandler by offering a service - a song, a window wash, or whatever.
Some are honest, some are not. Some are what they appear to be, and some are not. Some ask for money to get home (as in a subway) and others ask for enough for a "cup of coffee". Some have no intention of spending their money on coffee. But if I give, it is not mine to question or judge, but it is my choice to go and buy the coffee or a meal.
I live in a smaller community. Most of our "panhandlers" are the same consistent ones. They are either subsidizing their money allotment from social services to purchase extra items, or they have run out of money for the month and need it to live on. There are some who are only looking for a cigarette.
And then, I think there are those that have the health, skills, and emotionally stability, to be able to find a job and keep a job, but they prefer the carefree lifestyle of a panhandler.
And there are those who panhandler by offering a service - a song, a window wash, or whatever.
Some are honest, some are not. Some are what they appear to be, and some are not. Some ask for money to get home (as in a subway) and others ask for enough for a "cup of coffee". Some have no intention of spending their money on coffee. But if I give, it is not mine to question or judge, but it is my choice to go and buy the coffee or a meal.
I live in a smaller community. Most of our "panhandlers" are the same consistent ones. They are either subsidizing their money allotment from social services to purchase extra items, or they have run out of money for the month and need it to live on. There are some who are only looking for a cigarette.
Rowan
Active Member
There's a difference to me between people who busk (play music) and have a hat out as it were and people who ask every passerby for change. In some cities buskers actually have to pass an audition and get a license for one thing and there are often rules about when and where they can set up. I don't ever give money to panhandlers. I'm not sure if Edmonton has actually bylaws about it but there are signs encouraging people to give the money to charities that help the homeless rather than giving them money in a lot of areas of the city where panhandlers are a common sight. There a plenty of places where the homeless can get help in Edmonton (soup kitchens, shelters) and I'd rather not give money to someone who may (and in many cases it's "will" not "may") use it for booze or drugs.
Thought I should post this again. Just a heads up - when you are directed to give to charities and non-profits instead (and there are a lot of good ones) maybe keep in mind that you are assuming that those charities and non-profits are meeting their needs if they are even able to based on whatever mandates or restrictions they have. Look into that, too. I'm not saying don't give to them - do! But I wish people were more aware of the holes that show up in our safety net. I used to think they were all accounted for. I question that now. I know non-profits do the best they think they can do.
People on welfare are not given a bus pass unless they meet a certain designation - and it is highly subsidized but not free. So, if they are running around between the welfare office, the employment office, a place to find work clothes, a place to do laundry or have a shower, a place that gives free haircuts at specific times, the food bank, the soup kitchen - all on foot - in a way, panhandling gives them some dignity to work for themselves to cover the cracks that are getting missed by the people just shuffling people around between services who don't really understand all their needs - even if they buy some superfluous item with the money they get sometimes - it's not like we never do - so why judge them? It's not like we never buy a candy bar or even a beer once in awhile - maybe even three. They're human too. Not that the agency workers don't have good intentions. But these street people kind of stop feeling like themselves and just a number in an poorly connected system, I think. It's harder work than a lot of people, if not most, who have 'real jobs' have to do - because their very basic survival is on the line and they are up against the cruel elements. There is no employee rights, no protection from abuse, no safety protocol - they are just 'out there' - but they have their own identity that gets lost in the system. I have a different perspective I guess.
Last edited:
Really low income people often have no choice whatsoever about how they get fed, what they eat, what they're given to wear, where they can find shelter, how they can spend the little income stipend they get. They never get to go to movies with friends, to eat out at decent restaurants, to go to cultural events, recreation centres, gyms - like 'average' folks do - they might not be let into those places (they're lucky to be let in to use the bathroom) so maybe panhandling gives them a little bit of choice - even if there are not many healthy options left for them to spend on recreation and entertainment. They'd be judged for spending any money on those things anyway. They may not even be able to go to the library - shut out of everywhere we take for granted. They are real people with real core personalities - not just anonymous beggars. I don't approve of it going to drugs but I understand their need to 'escape' just like everyone else has. In their case, the realities they're escaping from are so much tougher. So i have no contempt for them - even if they make bad choices. Those bad choices may be the only choices they feel they have. I wish they didn't feel the need to, is all.
Last edited:
Seeler
Well-Known Member
I used to wonder why so many of the people who came to our church looking for a grocery voucher would show up with a Tim Horton's coffee in their hands - especially when we invited them in for coffee and a fruit and/or muffin or cookie. Then I heard that another church gives out Tim Horton's certificates. So they come to town, hit Tims for coffee, then our church for a bit of sitting and socializing while waiting for a voucher, and then do their grocery shopping, and get home before the kids get home from school.
So, do most people automatically agree with the old expression, "beggars can't be choosers"?
GeoFee
I am who I am becoming...
I have distributed thousands of dollars as undeserved gifts to persons met along the way. At times superior voices have accused me of "enabling" drunkards and addicts. No more than any municipal, provincial or federal financial aid to the vulnerable and the needy.
Every first encounter establishes opportunity for relationship. Every following encounter furthers growth of that relationship. By such person to person encounter I have given and received benefit transcending any monetary consideration. The acknowledgement and respect I offer inspires esteem and esteem is the foundation of recovery. Not always but more than enough times to offset the cost.
If I give Carol on the corner ten dollars to help with the household budget she is relieved of some small measure of anxiety concerning the well being of her child. For the state to deliver that ten dollars would cost the tax payer multiplied thousands of dollars in administrative cost and salary for the whole array of social service employees and managers.
Each of us has opportunity, in every serendipitous encounter, to be the agent of transformation by which the lost are found and the dead are raised.
Every first encounter establishes opportunity for relationship. Every following encounter furthers growth of that relationship. By such person to person encounter I have given and received benefit transcending any monetary consideration. The acknowledgement and respect I offer inspires esteem and esteem is the foundation of recovery. Not always but more than enough times to offset the cost.
If I give Carol on the corner ten dollars to help with the household budget she is relieved of some small measure of anxiety concerning the well being of her child. For the state to deliver that ten dollars would cost the tax payer multiplied thousands of dollars in administrative cost and salary for the whole array of social service employees and managers.
Each of us has opportunity, in every serendipitous encounter, to be the agent of transformation by which the lost are found and the dead are raised.
I'm thinking of how often I have received gifts I didn't work for...Christmas presents, wedding gifts, a friend who's bought me lunch, someone who has a free ticket to something and invites me, my grandma up until she passed away - up until last year putting a bit of cash in my birthday cards, friends inviting me over for dinner and wine and lively conversation...and I am willing to do the same without questioning whether they 'deserve' it or not. Even at work I get free coffee, there is free fruit delivered to the staff room every week, we get a Christmas party - we get extended medical (which includes things like counselling, massage therapy, dental) - on top of our paycheques. So, why do street people, who often have no friends, acquaintances and family able to provide those gestures, struggling to survive, 'deserve' them any less?...or I guess another question is why should we expect them to be more grateful for any little extras they get than what we get? They may well be...but is it up to us to expect that?
Last edited:
Delightful Life
M&M, Cascadian Lovers
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
wow, another example of things i have discovered other people much older than i have already written aboot
Ritafee
Is Being Human
Universal Maxims According To Kant
1. Act according to the maxim that it would become a universal law.
1. Act according to the maxim that it would become a universal law.
- so if everyone stopped and fed the homeless would this result in good everywhere? Yes.
- so if I feel obliged to feed the homeless man and do so, I'm not thinking about the consequences or benefits to myself. I treat the person as an end. If I feel inclined to do so because I'll feel good about myself afterwards, I treat the homeless person as a means to an end.
BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
But given that the homeless person is equally as fed no matter what your intent, I'm not sure I like the extra judgment involved in #2. In fact, it's quite counter to the concept of cognitive behaviour therapy, which is, in essence, "fake it til you make it".
I have a son who is a street person, and often homeless. He is already judged by society as an economic failure, and then, should he actually have the nerve to purchase a coffee in said economic system, is further judged as not worthy of such a treat. (And he has an iPad, which he won (on a ticket I purchased) at a church raffle. It is his only means of communication. He hangs out in wi-fi hot zones and texts or calls people using it, for free. )
Seeler
Well-Known Member
My (limited) understanding of economics is that money in circulation feeds the economy.
I recently caught a video on facebook - a couple of young men casually dressed in jeans did an experiment.
First they went into a restaurant and went from table to table telling people that they were hungry and asking if those people had anything to spare. None of those people enjoying their hamburgers, fries, drinks could offer anything.
Next one of the men bought a couple of burgers and a drink and approached a homeless man in a nearby park. After a few minutes conversation he gave this man the bag of burgers and the drink and walked on. Just as the homeless man began eating, the second man approached - started a conversation and said, "I'm hungry. Do you have anything to spare?" He immediately received the second burger.
The same thing happened when one of the men gave a homeless person $10.00. The second person asked for help and received a toonie.
Lesson 1 - the people with the least seemed the most willing to share what they had
Lesson 2 - giving to the poor keeps the assets in circulation and eventually helps the economy.
I recently caught a video on facebook - a couple of young men casually dressed in jeans did an experiment.
First they went into a restaurant and went from table to table telling people that they were hungry and asking if those people had anything to spare. None of those people enjoying their hamburgers, fries, drinks could offer anything.
Next one of the men bought a couple of burgers and a drink and approached a homeless man in a nearby park. After a few minutes conversation he gave this man the bag of burgers and the drink and walked on. Just as the homeless man began eating, the second man approached - started a conversation and said, "I'm hungry. Do you have anything to spare?" He immediately received the second burger.
The same thing happened when one of the men gave a homeless person $10.00. The second person asked for help and received a toonie.
Lesson 1 - the people with the least seemed the most willing to share what they had
Lesson 2 - giving to the poor keeps the assets in circulation and eventually helps the economy.
ChemGal
One with keen eye
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
Seeler, I saw that, and I'm more cynical. First of all, it's a film and it seemed to me the film was the goal, not the experiment.
Second of all, there were multiple factors between the groups. A big one being that one of the groups just received a free gift. The setting matters, the way one is approached matters, etc.
Second of all, there were multiple factors between the groups. A big one being that one of the groups just received a free gift. The setting matters, the way one is approached matters, etc.
I had a homeless person tell me it's always those with the least who make the effort to help the most.
There was a great TED video related to the idea that the more people have the less (ratio wise) they are willing to give. A study was done...to do it they used a rigged monopoly game. And the better off in the rigged game become quite arrogant about their good fortune as if they earned their place and the less fortunate deserved their misfortune.
It's like life...not everyone starts off with equal chances to come out ahead of the game.Perhaps those who have come close to or have experienced poverty understand it better.
GeoFee
I am who I am becoming...
Hi Bette... you posted "fake it til you make it". This seems ordered to satisfy Kant's second imperative, does it not? The faking has an end in view, recognition of the recipient as an end and not a means to an end.
One summer a congregation opened its heart and doors to survival sex workers addicted to crack cocaine. I was employed by that congregation and personally served the basic needs, (tea, porridge, clean syringes, condoms with affirmations) of the gathered community. Neighbours did not think such folk deserved this kindness.
The United Church sided with the neighbours and against the congregation. The VPD, which had been respecting the church as sanctuary, were authorized by a presbytery executive to drive the girls back into the shady lanes. This at the time our country and the world were appalled to discover that Robert Picton had been butchering such persons.
My own experience, from the age of 19 till 30, as a homeless person, we were called transient in those days, have shaped me to see persons where our society sees problems. Generally this has resulted me being viewed as a problem rather than a person. For my service to the persons gathered to that church at that time, I was removed and forbidden to appear in the vicinity of the church.
My longing? That the many persons professing faith in the way shower Mary named Jesus will enter into solidarity with the poor and outcast as that remarkable mother's son did. Solidarity by which charity is expressed as justice.
One summer a congregation opened its heart and doors to survival sex workers addicted to crack cocaine. I was employed by that congregation and personally served the basic needs, (tea, porridge, clean syringes, condoms with affirmations) of the gathered community. Neighbours did not think such folk deserved this kindness.
The United Church sided with the neighbours and against the congregation. The VPD, which had been respecting the church as sanctuary, were authorized by a presbytery executive to drive the girls back into the shady lanes. This at the time our country and the world were appalled to discover that Robert Picton had been butchering such persons.
My own experience, from the age of 19 till 30, as a homeless person, we were called transient in those days, have shaped me to see persons where our society sees problems. Generally this has resulted me being viewed as a problem rather than a person. For my service to the persons gathered to that church at that time, I was removed and forbidden to appear in the vicinity of the church.
My longing? That the many persons professing faith in the way shower Mary named Jesus will enter into solidarity with the poor and outcast as that remarkable mother's son did. Solidarity by which charity is expressed as justice.
GeoFee
I am who I am becoming...
Hi Seeler....
I walked the streets of your city for six years. I learned that there are about two hundred persons in single occupancy dwellings of the downtown area. I observed that when these person were too visible in the streets, merchants called the police and the police forced those persons out of sight. They were at times arrested, tried and sent to prison in St. John's. They were transported by police vehicles at substantial expense to the taxpayers. I recall very little objection from those taxpayers. Something of a surprise when so many of them professed faith in one whom they called saviour of the lost.
Have things changed since my departure, now some number of years past?
I walked the streets of your city for six years. I learned that there are about two hundred persons in single occupancy dwellings of the downtown area. I observed that when these person were too visible in the streets, merchants called the police and the police forced those persons out of sight. They were at times arrested, tried and sent to prison in St. John's. They were transported by police vehicles at substantial expense to the taxpayers. I recall very little objection from those taxpayers. Something of a surprise when so many of them professed faith in one whom they called saviour of the lost.
Have things changed since my departure, now some number of years past?