What Does It Mean To Fall From Grace ?

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chansen said:
Blackbelt, we have examples of paths of destruction through substance abuse and other pitfalls that young people often encounter and are sucked into. We have evidence of what can happen. Yes, we try to guide our children away from these dangers, but mostly we give them the tools to navigate the world themselves. We can not be with them every moment of every day.

What you're talking about is different, because to you, the "danger" is that children believe differently than you do. That doesn't rank with the other dangers listed above. You have no evidence that these things are actually bad in *any* demonstrable way. Based on how you act, I think I can make a more compelling case that the real danger is actually being like you and believing the same stultifying things you do. And I can appreciate that you disagree and that this is mostly an opinion, but so is your insistence that you have a path that we must follow, or else.
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QFT (Quoted For Truth)

The best thing we can give our children is a good, rounded education with lots of critical thinking skills (I've been bugging my son to watch the philosophy course that I'm watching on Great Courses Plus but he hasn't bitten so far) and the empowerment to say "yes" and "no" to the world. With those tools, they can navigate pretty much anything, including religion.
 
blackbelt1961 said:
ok, so again I ask, if one of your children are down a path to destruction, would you not try and save them?
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Yes, absolutely. But even someone like the Christ must work within the Law. He cannot impose His will on ours, just as we could never walk into a school and do our children's work for them. And this, I suspect, is what Inanna is talking about regarding Saviours. A Saviour must still work within the bounds of the Law and, for the most part, only "show us" the way. We ourselves ultimately need to "take up our cross" and "walk the path" on our own. Christ will not carry us to Calvary. It's on this point that I think tradition Christian beliefs are simply wrong, they want the Christ to walk into our lives, give us the inspiration we need, guide and move every aspect of our lives like we were puppets on a string. Nothing could be further from the truth, in my opinion. "Greater things" doesn't mean He will do these greater things for us.
 
chansen said:
Blackbelt, we have examples of paths of destruction through substance abuse and other pitfalls that young people often encounter and are sucked into. We have evidence of what can happen. Yes, we try to guide our children away from these dangers, but mostly we give them the tools to navigate the world themselves. We can not be with them every moment of every day.
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Yes Guidance is what parents do but The point is, if a child is on the path to destruction , a parent, would go out and do what ever he/she has in its powers to save its kid, why ? because we love them with our own lives.
 
Neo ----your quote ------If the fall results in us becoming "God-Aware", then it sounds like a plan well played. We should never feel guilty about being who we are if we believe ourselves to be Sparks of the Eternal Divine

The fall results in us becoming Unaware of God and very much aware of this world -----the only person that can make you God aware again is Jesus --if you reject Jesus you are God -Unaware ----and Satan Aware -----

The thing you don't seem to get Neo is the Spark is out after the fall the only way to get the spark back is to not reject the very Person that paid the price to bring back the Spark ----the Spark is just that a spark ---you have to be spiritually hungry enough to keep the spark in sight to bring the spark from a spark to a fire burning ----- only then can you satisfy your spiritual hunger ----

Neo ------your quote -----As children of the Most High, we too are learning to perfect ourselves but in consonance with Christ's order, "Be ye therefore perfect" - St Matt v.48.11.

This is that scripture Neo ---it is about loving your enemies -----Matthew 5:38-48 ---Jesus is speaking to Grown adults here ----and Jesus is still alive so they are all still under the Law ----break one law you broke them all -----and it was only the Jews who were God's chosen ---The Gentiles were not included in the saved ---they were not God's Children ----They were God's Creation ---

Here is the thing Neo that you are not getting ----You are Not a Child of God without Christ --Period ---you are God's creation ------the Children born have God's Mercy on them till they are know right from wrong ---good from evil ----God sees them as innocent by His mercy --they are still born with a sin nature but they are unaware of what sin is and how they can sin until they are at an age of understanding ----it is the parents job to teach the child right from wrong --good from evil ---God can't do that ------God decides when the child is ready to have sin imputed on them --not us ---we should be thankful and praising God every day for His graciousness in allowing our children that benefit -----

If the parents are Anti -God of the Bible and Pro Buddha most likely the Child will Be Anti -God of the Bible and Pro Buddha -----How many children are there in your Religion Neo that are being brought up to listen to Buddha ----and don't know anything about the God of Abraham -----Yet God has given them a Grace period until they know right from wrong ----good from evil ---- they are innocent in His eyes ----and you say God is unjust ---

Here is your own example Neo from your own words -----Christian beliefs are simply wrong, they want the Christ to walk into our lives, give us the inspiration we need, guide and move every aspect of our lives like we were puppets on a string.

You teach your children that and you take away their choice ---you as a parent are suppose to as you say let them choose their path ---but you squash their choices with statements like this ---it is the parents who turn their children away from God of the Bible and to their own Religion to worship whatever god is the head of their Religion -----that is just so wrong -----you take away your child's choice to choose cause the parent has made the choice for the child already ----- by saying --Don't go the Christian way cause -----your words Neo ----Christian beliefs are simply wrong ----Planting the seed here Neo to stay away from the God of the Bible ---

 
blackbelt1961 said:
Yes Guidance is what parents do but The point is, if a child is on the path to destruction , a parent, would go out and do what ever he/she has in its powers to save its kid, why ? because we love them with our own lives.
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That's not what I said at all. I wrote that a parent's job is to give their kids the tools to navigate the world on their own. If we extrapolate that to your hypothesis of God, then God should give us the ability to discern claims. And when we look at what you claim, it's all baseless, and your warnings about a wrong path show no observable danger actually exists. You're not warning people of a real danger, you're just engaged in fear-based marketing for your beliefs.
 
chansen said:
That's not what I said at all. I wrote that a parent's job is to give their kids the tools to navigate the world on their own. If we extrapolate that to your hypothesis of God, then God should give us the ability to discern claims. And when we look at what you claim, it's all baseless, and your warnings about a wrong path show no observable danger actually exists. You're not warning people of a real danger, you're just engaged in fear-based marketing for your beliefs.
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Ok
 
Luce NDs said:
"OK"?

Then you believe in terrorism?
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It's more likely that the council forums have convinced him not to come unhinged whenever I oppose him, and in lieu of going supernova, he's taking a page from Jae's playbook. I can think of better playbooks, but he's trying.
 
chansen said:
That's not what I said at all. I wrote that a parent's job is to give their kids the tools to navigate the world on their own. If we extrapolate that to your hypothesis of God, then God should give us the ability to discern claims. And when we look at what you claim, it's all baseless, and your warnings about a wrong path show no observable danger actually exists. You're not warning people of a real danger, you're just engaged in fear-based marketing for your beliefs.
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--Hi Chansen your all wet, What do you want to bet you sinned before you were 13.You a sinner are going to teach your children how to do the right thing? Also I some how don't believe you know and understand all about GOD. So how do you teach something you don't understand? We Christians have a belief Chansen. If you don't belong to Jesus The Christ. Then you belong to satan.
 
blackbelt1961 said:
Yes Guidance is what parents do but The point is, if a child is on the path to destruction , a parent, would go out and do what ever he/she has in its powers to save its kid, why ? because we love them with our own lives.
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But kids DONT STAY KIDS ALL THEIR LIVES
When a parents child grows up they STOP BEING RELENTLESSLY HELPED BY THEIR PARENTS
 
Inannawhimsey said:
But kids DONT STAY KIDS ALL THEIR LIVES
When a parents child grows up they STOP BEING RELENTLESSLY HELPED BY THEIR PARENTS
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When they become of age Inanna, There life is there own. Like you or me they will answer for what they do. That is unless they have Christ to answer for them.
 
chansen said:
, but so is your insistence that you have a path that we must follow, or else.
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I see none of that
I know u have a history with him a big emotionally charged history with him
And I know you dont have free will..
But Ive never seen him forcing his beliefs on you
Unless you are some kind of Marxist Identity Theorist who thinks that someone writing is forcing their beliefs on you or else?
And so it goes
 
airclean33 said:
When they become of age Inanna, There life is there own. Like you or me they will answer for what they do. That is unless they have Christ to answer for them.
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Dont change or add in what isnt being discussed mdear...I am not writing aboot that at all. g_d allowing innocent kittens to suffocate in concrete just so that humans can have free will is not what my reply is aboot. Please pay attention to the conversation?
 
unsafe said:
Neo ----your quote ------If the fall results in us becoming "God-Aware", then it sounds like a plan well played. We should never feel guilty about being who we are if we believe ourselves to be Sparks of the Eternal Divine

The fall results in us becoming Unaware of God and very much aware of this world -----the only person that can make you God aware again is Jesus --if you reject Jesus you are God -Unaware ----and Satan Aware -----

The thing you don't seem to get Neo is the Spark is out after the fall the only way to get the spark back is to not reject the very Person that paid the price to bring back the Spark ----the Spark is just that a spark ---you have to be spiritually hungry enough to keep the spark in sight to bring the spark from a spark to a fire burning ----- only then can you satisfy your spiritual hunger ----
Click to expand...
The Spark of Divinity "is out" eh? Or is it rather the case, as you put above, that we simply became "unaware" of this part of our divinity?

Neo ------your quote -----As children of the Most High, we too are learning to perfect ourselves but in consonance with Christ's order, , "Be ye therefore perfect" - St Matt v.48.11.

This is that scripture Neo ---it is about loving your enemies -----Matthew 5:38-48 ---Jesus is speaking to Grown adults here ----and Jesus is still alive so they are all still under the Law ----break one law you broke them all -----and it was only the Jews who were God's chosen ---The Gentiles were not included in the saved ---they were not God's Children ----They were God's Creation ---
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Loving your neighbour is indeed one aspect of "being perfect".

Here is the thing Neo that you are not getting ----You are Not a Child of God without Christ --Period ---you are God's creation ------the Children born have God's Mercy on them till they are know right from wrong ---good from evil ----God sees them as innocent by His mercy --they are still born with a sin nature but they are unaware of what sin is and how they can sin until they are at an age of understanding ----it is the parents job to teach the child right from wrong --good from evil ---God can't do that ------God decides when the child is ready to have sin imputed on them --not us ---we should be thankful and praising God every day for His graciousness in allowing our children that benefit -----
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Hmmm... I would disagree with your underlined claim above. Is that a sin?

If the parents are Anti -God of the Bible and Pro Buddha most likely the Child will Be Anti -God of the Bible and Pro Buddha -----How many children are there in your Religion Neo that are being brought up to listen to Buddha ----and don't know anything about the God of Abraham -----Yet God has given them a Grace period until they know right from wrong ----good from evil ---- they are innocent in His eyes ----and you say God is unjust ---
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I didn't say God is unjust, I asked the question "where was the justice" in relation to your doctrine, your belief, your interpretation of the Bible? I believe that justice, love and mercy does exist in nature. Your doctrine, however, says otherwise because it claims that you have to find Jesus and you have to find Him in one single lifetime. A statement that doesn't fit with the terrible situations people all around the world are being born into. It makes no sense as there is neither justice or mercy in a "one life to find Jesus" scenario.

You ask "How many children are there in your Religion Neo that are being brought up to listen to Buddha ----and don't know anything about the God of Abraham -----Yet God has given them a Grace period..."

So you believe there is a grace period? Wow, that seems new for you. So how long is it? Twelve years? Twelve lifetimes? Twelve ages? Twelve eons? What if the Buddhist child grows up happy and wise without ever reading the Bible? Is this what really matters in our lives? Do you honestly think that God cares what religion you happen to belong to?

Here is your own example Neo from your own words -----Christian beliefs are simply wrong, they want the Christ to walk into our lives, give us the inspiration we need, guide and move every aspect of our lives like we were puppets on a string.
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You're going to have to find where I actually said, in my own words, "Christian beliefs are simply wrong". What I did say is about being puppets is that if you rely on Jesus to do "everything" for you then your life is nothing but a puppet on string. Save you self Unsafe, pick up your own cross of self-sacrifice and start standing and walking on your own two feet. Don't you think the Christ has enough to do without having to carry you too?

You teach your children that and you take away their choice ---you as a parent are suppose to as you say let them choose their path ---but you squash their choices with statements like this ---it is the parents who turn their children away from God of the Bible and to their own Religion to worship whatever god is the head of their Religion -----that is just so wrong -----you take away your child's choice to choose cause the parent has made the choice for the child already ----- by saying --Don't go the Christian way cause -----your words Neo ----Christian beliefs are simply wrong ----Planting the seed here Neo to stay away from the God of the Bible ---
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Again, not once have I ever said "don't go the Christian way". I've always maintained that religions are like ladders to the roof of a great building. Your interpretation is that there is only "one" ladder, the Christian ladder. And before you quote that Christ is "the only way", I would suggest to you that Christ is on the allegorical roof. How you get to the roof is likely a result of when and where you are born in the world.

You seem to think that I because I believe that the Christ is a World Teacher, and not just a religious teacher for just the Christians, that this is somehow a mortal sin. Mathma Ghandi once said to a Christian "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ". I couldn't agree with him more, (present company excluded of course).

My beliefs are that if you are a Christian then be a Christian, or if you are a Buddhist then be a Buddhist, and so on with all the religions of the world. The important thing is that whatever you do with your life, do so with sincerity of spirit, honesty of mind, and the wisdom to know when to detach from the old and outdated. In this way only will we find the true and the only Way to the Christ Consciousness. But, I must add, if one is to follow a religion then it would seem that Christianity has the seeds of the future in it. But not before the old dogmas and the outdated doctrines of Christianity are reassessed. Until then, Christianity the religion contains far too much disdain and intolerance for "outsiders", the "other sheep". I would even go so far as to suggest that Christ Himself is probably not overjoyed with the way people have created such a separatist religion in His name.
 
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airclean33 said:
--Hi Chansen your all wet, What do you want to bet you sinned before you were 13.You a sinner are going to teach your children how to do the right thing? Also I some how don't believe you know and understand all about GOD. So how do you teach something you don't understand? We Christians have a belief Chansen. If you don't belong to Jesus The Christ. Then you belong to satan.
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I don't care about sin. I just don't care what they are or what side of them I'm on. I have enough to worry about in a day, and sins are a stupid set of rules I can safely ignore and not devote a moment's thought to them.

As to my children, I think I'm a great father. Unconventional, but I have a great relationship with my daughter, had a great one with my first son, and am developing a rapport with the new little bastard. Ask anyone who has met my daughter.

Satan is a lovely bit of old style fearmongering, but no one cares anymore. Not since Cthulu came on the scene. Now that guy is scary. You should use him.
 
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