What Does It Mean To Fall From Grace ?

[unsafe]

Neo ---your quote -----So "the fall of Man" from paradise was predestined and for a reason?

This is my view only --- ---for God's view you will have to ask Him directly ----


God had a plan ----all plans need a beginning as well as a middle and an end in my view ----In the Beginning God created ---the earth ---a garden with all sustainable things needed for things to survive all animals and mammals and insects --and Humans etc---He then created the first Christ and wanted Him to have complete dominion over all that was in the earth and then He have His First Christ a partner so the earth would be populated and could help him and be a companion for him ---He needed people to continue His Plan ---He brought in Choice for man and his partner --- first by giving a command then by bringing in opposition ----to test Faith which is needed to please God -----His first Christ and his partner has a choice to decide to obey or not --testing where their loyalty was and who they had faith in ----They made their choice ---it was a bad choice ----- Did He know His first Creation would fall ---I personally believe He did ---so His plan could play out the way He Wanted to the end ---His plan is still in place and has yet to come to an end ------His Love and Justice to me is plainly seen -----He sent His only Son to Die and Shed His Blood to reverse the bad decision made by His first Christ to disobey His command and allow himself to be taken in by deception -----Jesus is the last Adam ------

You know, I actually agree with a lot of what you say here, though I would markedly question your emphasis on the "bad" decision though. After all, you just admitted that God probably knew what was going to happen. Self guilt eventually has to be met, dealt with, and then left behind for good. This, I believe, is one of the ways to "be perfect".

This "bad choice", to consume and become part of the earth, marked a "fall" for the Oversoul of Humanity, the Adam Kadmon, the original and Primordal Man. We became enmeshed in Mother Earth and Father Time, also known as space-time. You would simply call it Satan. We fell into generation and therefore fell into death.

But this whole thing may have been worth it in the long run. What if the Soul of Man did so as part of the plan you speak of? As if it was the next thing that the Soul of Mankind needed. The next step in a perpetual series of cycles in nature, some big, some smaller. A transference of energy from one realm to another.

But the thing about cycles is that they always come around. The tables turn and the last comes first. This is the secret between the Adam and the Christ, one represents descent, the other ascent. This is the wisdom of the serpent.

 

[unsafe]

Neo ----your quote ----I would markedly question your emphasis on the "bad" decision though.

Well I agree that God knew that Adam was not strong enough to resist the temptation of disobedience ----I do believe it shows what a bad choice can bring upon oneself ------we tend to blame God or Satan for our bad situations when many times it is our own bad decisions ---all bad decision making will bring some kind of bad consequences -----God Tests us and gives us a way out ----Satan temps us by putting a thought in our minds ---it is up to us to cast out the bad through and not to choose to act on it ------we have that choice -----

What the bad decision shows is that in making bad decisions we bring bad consequences upon ourselves ------God provided all they needed in the garden ----gave them free will to choose ---this sticks today --free will to choose ---what we choose in our decisions is what we bring upon ourselves--God wants the best for His Creation but he leaves it up to us to make the right decisions ----Adam and Eve had the Tree of Life in the Garden it was for the taking ---they chose not to go near that tree -----but couldn't resist the tree they were told not to go to --We humans today are the same ----for example ---we have a choice to drink and drive or to call a taxi to get us home ----The Bible has many warnings about drinking to much -----and this world has laws on this ---but many choose to go against the warnings God Gives and the Laws of the land ----so if caught or get into an accident it is bad judgment and bad decision making on our part ---

This is just one scripture ----

Proverbs 20 KJV :1- Wine [is] a mocker, strong drink [is] raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

 

[Luce NDs]

--Hi BetteTHERed-- You can believe what ever you want. I have no way to change your mind. I will believe GOD wrote The Bible , that humankind try an change words and meanings. As Blackbelt explain when Jesus was on earth He said they had then. You your self said it could be and A. That's kind of funny , as it is what Witnesses the use this in there Bible John 1:1 As A God". Are you a Witnesses Red? Not that that bothers me. I have many friends who are. I do not judge others Red, there is One" who dose however. That is between you and Him.

Was god-love involved in other books beyond the singularity of the one-pathee mind ... a pain to all that's out there according to the last verse of the truth of John's? One should tread lightly on outer paths ... as the patriarchy wouldn't like you to know more than where they've fixated themselves ... institutionally as presupposed by a host of creation that really knows little (not much)!

 

[Luce NDs]

Neo ----your quote ----I would markedly question your emphasis on the "bad" decision though.

Well I agree that God knew that Adam was not strong enough to resist the temptation of disobedience ----I do believe it shows what a bad choice can bring upon oneself ------we tend to blame God or Satan for our bad situations when many times it is our own bad decisions ---all bad decision making will bring some kind of bad consequences -----God Tests us and gives us a way out ----Satan temps us by putting a thought in our minds ---it is up to us to cast out the bad through and not to choose to act on it ------we have that choice -----

What the bad decision shows is that in making bad decisions we bring bad consequences upon ourselves ------God provided all they needed in the garden ----gave them free will to choose ---this sticks today --free will to choose ---what we choose in our decisions is what we bring upon ourselves--God wants the best for His Creation but he leaves it up to us to make the right decisions ----Adam and Eve had the Tree of Life in the Garden it was for the taking ---they chose not to go near that tree -----but couldn't resist the tree they were told not to go to --We humans today are the same ----for example ---we have a choice to drink and drive or to call a taxi to get us home ----The Bible has many warnings about drinking to much -----and this world has laws on this ---but many choose to go against the warnings God Gives and the Laws of the land ----so if caught or get into an accident it is bad judgment and bad decision making on our part ---

This is just one scripture ----

Proverbs 20 KJV :1- Wine [is] a mocker, strong drink [is] raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Whiners are always despised by authority as it often drives them beyond comfortable limits of the wealthy elite ... but does not explain that verse about a little wine is good for the belly and soul ... this small things are humbly enriching ... and god may be far more humble than you can imagine ... a mire spot or pixel in reality? That'd be a ante particle right from the initiation ... like those in ye east ... fulminating and frothy as quantum goest ... if per chance you encounter the unseen by large hosts ...

Sort of like a burp or blip in virtue as a shot in the night no chit but fecundity ... as expressed by mothering nature ...

Man described as a critter set on destroying such ... as Psyche and Sophia ... tis ante complicated ... and Moor sophisticated ups and downs than imaginable by fixed persona ... the physically institutionalized and can't get out?

 

[Neo]

Neo ----your quote ----I would markedly question your emphasis on the "bad" decision though.

Well I agree that God knew that Adam was not strong enough to resist the temptation of disobedience ----I do believe it shows what a bad choice can bring upon oneself ------we tend to blame God or Satan for our bad situations when many times it is our own bad decisions ---all bad decision making will bring some kind of bad consequences -----God Tests us and gives us a way out ----Satan temps us by putting a thought in our minds ---it is up to us to cast out the bad through and not to choose to act on it ------we have that choice -----

What the bad decision shows is that in making bad decisions we bring bad consequences upon ourselves ------God provided all they needed in the garden ----gave them free will to choose ---this sticks today --free will to choose ---what we choose in our decisions is what we bring upon ourselves--God wants the best for His Creation but he leaves it up to us to make the right decisions ----Adam and Eve had the Tree of Life in the Garden it was for the taking ---they chose not to go near that tree -----but couldn't resist the tree they were told not to go to --We humans today are the same ----for example ---we have a choice to drink and drive or to call a taxi to get us home ----The Bible has many warnings about drinking to much -----and this world has laws on this ---but many choose to go against the warnings God Gives and the Laws of the land ----so if caught or get into an accident it is bad judgment and bad decision making on our part ---

This is just one scripture ----

Proverbs 20 KJV :1- Wine [is] a mocker, strong drink [is] raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

But it wasn't a 'Tree of Desire' or a 'Tree of Gluttony' that they ate from, it was a "Tree of Knowledge". How were they to "know" that it wasn't a good idea to disobey God? Blackbelt says that it was because God walked with them and instructed them that it wasn't good to eat thereof. But again, if their eyes were not yet open and they could not yet discern between good and evil, how were they to know?

If it was designed from the beginning that they would fall from grace then it was all part of the plan. And if it was part of the plan then our ideas of original sin should be relooked at it and we should give ourselves a break and stop perpetuating the guilt trip that the Church has laid upon us, i.e. that we are all that we undeserving sinners.

The Church has always used guilt and fear as a means to control, and it's been going on for a long time. Maybe at first people needed this kind of "white lie", but in today's world of enlightenment this is one of the last religious myths that has to brought to light and true understanding. If the Tree of Knowledge represents the "coming of mind" then it should be understood that the mind enables us to rise above the purely physical and the lower desires of emotion. Mind enables to discern what's right and what's wrong, it cuts through the polar opposites of right and wrong, good and evil.

Eventually, however, even the mind is superseded by something even greater. Eventually we will not only "think" something is true but we'll be able to "intuit" and know without thinking that something is true. Most of the world is not there yet.

 

[Luce NDs]

But it wasn't a 'Tree of Desire' or a 'Tree of Gluttony' that they ate from, it was a "Tree of Knowledge". How were they to "know" that it wasn't a good idea to disobey God? Blackbelt says that it was because God walked with them and instructed them that it wasn't good to eat thereof. But again, if their eyes were not yet open and they could not yet discern between good and evil, how were they to know?

If it was designed from the beginning that they would fall from grace then it was all part of the plan. And if it was part of the plan then our ideas of original sin should be relooked at it and we should give ourselves a break and stop perpetuating the guilt trip that the Church has laid upon us, i.e. that we are all that we undeserving sinners.

The Church has always used guilt and fear as a means to control, and it's been going on for a long time. Maybe at first people needed this kind of "white lie", but in today's world of enlightenment this is one of the last religious myths that has to brought to light and true understanding. If the Tree of Knowledge represents the "coming of mind" then it should be understood that the mind enables us to rise above the purely physical and the lower desires of emotion. Mind enables to discern what's right and what's wrong, it cuts through the polar opposites of right and wrong, good and evil.

Eventually, however, even the mind is superseded by something even greater. Eventually we will not only "think" something is true but we'll be able to "intuit" and know without thinking that something is true. Most of the world is not there yet.

Yet still that firm message that thinking men are dangerous ... makes me sort of levitate ... and light soles without volume ... drift off ... where? Could be a Negro Spiritual ... dark unseen emotions? Mercerises' hues ... or Mar curios ...

Thus the generation of E gypt ... a gibe of immense imagination ... supported by the dark mystery of Africa underneath it!

Hoo dah (ch)unque it? Reconsider the generally unseen connection between "ð" (Latin "eth" e'real nothing) "ch" "dh" and "th" ... connections not understood by pagans as confined to small Ares of etude ... far from a linguistic virtue .. or knowing all icons well enough to get a grasp of grand greater fodders ... who tied patches on things distracting to adolescent buoys (floating) ... in the wee g(URLs) thoughts ... and thus called coven anting the source of creation as an icon of something deeper and unseen in de great grandmother of all sophistication.

Des pere's (desperation?) believing if out of sight out of mind ... when all the youth had in mind was flighty Pan Taes ... and thus evolution of di phthongs ... in crude form ... uncomfortable w' edge I'z ... if you were ignorant of what you were getting into ... like a lot of CEO's in various fields of effort ... pathology at it's best ... psychopaths like Shell Don ... a Don in hard cover ... or just NousTz ... perhaps reverse satyr?

Fodders ??? Some thing for de mudders to chew upon or otherwise eschew?

Sometimes hard to digest ... and thus mourn in isle Ness ... as conception of the outcome comes to light ... ante matter of sects, cults and greater scroo whops?

Conception cannot be hidden forever in diphthongs ... leading to severed strings and entanglements ... adept meta force?

 

[unsafe]

Neo ---your quote ----The Church has always used guilt and fear as a means to control,

Just my view on this -----

It is all the different Religions that uses bondage and keeps people in chains to their man made traditions and their rules on who is acceptable and who isn't ---that is-- not accepting certain groups out of fear of causing a riff with their regular people who support the church ------Religion is a business and needs people to fund it -So to appease their bread and butter they have to listen to their regular people ----God does not create Fear in people ---people create fear in people ----

God says there is no need to fear --Do not fear ----fear meaning dread --- fear-noun -- an unpleasant emotion caused by the belief that someone or something is dangerous, likely to cause pain, or a threat.----We are to Fear God ---Fear here meaning --- reverence ---have respect ---not dread

This is an example of how religion can work to appease their audience in my view -------these are a couple of examples -----

Pr.Jae -----said this on page 3 post 58 ---- Theologically, while I respect those who believe in the age of accountability, I myself do not. However, when it comes to ministering as a pastor , I absolutely do believe in it.

Then he says this on post 62 page 4 -----Systematic theology and pastoral ethics can sometimes guide one in different ways. The day may come, a day God knows I'm not ready for yet, when I'm called to give pastoral care to a couple or individual who have just lost an infant or young child.

Funerals is another ----The Minister telling the family there loved on is in heaven -----when they don't know for sure they have Jesus as their Lord and Saviour -----but know they have done good works -----it is said as comfort ----fear of the family knowing what the Bible actually says about the afterlife ----and good works without Christ under the New Covenant -----

 

[blackbelt1961]

But it wasn't a 'Tree of Desire' or a 'Tree of Gluttony' that they ate from, it was a "Tree of Knowledge". How were they to "know" that it wasn't a good idea to disobey God? Blackbelt says that it was because God walked with them and instructed them that it wasn't good to eat thereof. But again, if their eyes were not yet open and they could not yet discern between good and evil, how were they to know?

[FONT=Open Sans, sans-serif]Neo , as a father you tell your kids dont do drugs for the day you do you shall die, they disobey you , they do drugs and begin a downward spiral to there deaths, they knew enough to listen to you, they cannot know as equally as you since your older, more mature, more understanding.

How is the Creator any different ? we are made in His Likeness, we are Not Him, we cannot have the fullness of understanding, wisdom as that which Created us .

Knowledge = Power , desire, greed just as much as it = Good , Grace, Forgiveness. So Possessing ultimate knowledge in Perfect Goodness is to be an attribute of God, not created man. [/FONT]

 

[Luce NDs]

As a consequence of not knowing drugs can lead a person to where they'll never know anything anymore ... the final solution to flawed humanity ... the sole being the only perfect part ... relatively clear of any thought ... or the chi devil will wash that when you Dais ... job for the ladies unseen ... undertakers? Eternal catharsis ...

Tis a large wa'terre over head ... higher Zae, or just metaphor?

 

[unsafe]

Interesting article -----Did Religious man made traditions contribute to the death of Jesus ?

Read all here -----https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_248.cfm

Brought to you with permission of Don Stewart, the Bible Explorer

The New Testament records that the religious leaders hated Jesus to the point that they arrested Him, tried Him, and brought Him to Pilate for a sentence of death. What made them so angry at Jesus that they wanted to see Him dead?
There Are Many Reasons They Wanted Jesus Dead

There were a number of things about Jesus that infuriated the religious leaders. These included.

1. The claims that He made.
2. The deeds that He did.
3. His threat to their religious system.
4. His threat to their way of life.
5. The people with whom He socialized.
6. The lack of respect He had for their religious traditions.

These six things caused outraged among the religious rulers. Consequently they wanted to see Jesus dead. We will consider each of these reasons.His threat

 

[Mendalla]

These included.

1. The claims that He made.
2. The deeds that He did.
3. His threat to their religious system.
4. His threat to their way of life.
5. The people with whom He socialized.
6. The lack of respect He had for their religious traditions.

These six things caused outraged among the religious rulers. Consequently they wanted to see Jesus dead. We will consider each of these reasons.His threat

Aren't the last four really facets of the same thing: Jesus seeking to de-emphasize legalism (not the law itself, but the narrow focus on it) in favour of Grace, which then undermined the hierarchies of power built on rigid focus on the Law?

 

[unsafe]

This is what the scripture says -----So we know that Jesus was suppose to be crucified ----that was in God's Plan ----Religious leaders were afraid that they would loose their status and nation -----and people would not believe them anymore and not keep their Religious Traditions -----and anyone who followed Jesus and His teachings were afraid to say so because they would be put out of the synagogue ---So to me it seems that their Religious practices they felt would be in ruin ----- so they wanted Jesus out of the way ------

3 examples ---

So for me personally it seems that Religious practices and the fear of loosing same played a part in wanting Jesus off the streets -----and to get Him out of the way ----Jesus was not a lover of many of their man made Religious rules and practices and made no bones about telling them so ------

John 9:13-16New King James Version (NKJV)

The Pharisees Excommunicate the Healed Man

13 They brought him who formerly was blind to the Pharisees.14 Now it was a Sabbath when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes.15 Then the Pharisees also asked him again how he had received his sight. He said to them, “He put clay on my eyes, and I washed, and I see.”
16 Therefore some of the Pharisees said, “This Man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.”
Others said, “How can a man who is a sinner do such signs?” And there was a division among them.


John 12:42-43New King James Version (NKJV)
Walk in the Light

42 Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him,lest they should be put out of the synagogue;43 for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.


John 11 NKJV
The Plot to Kill Jesus

45 Then many of the Jews who had come to Mary, and had seen the things Jesus did, believed in Him.46 But some of them went away to the Pharisees and told them the things Jesus did.47 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, “What shall we do? For this Man works many signs.48 If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.”

 

[Luce NDs]

Jesus ... alight in opposition to a dark religious system ... myopia?

 

[Neo]

Neo , as a father you tell your kids dont do drugs for the day you do you shall die, they disobey you , they do drugs and begin a downward spiral to there deaths, they knew enough to listen to you, they cannot know as equally as you since your older, more mature, more understanding.

How is the Creator any different ? we are made in His Likeness, we are Not Him, we cannot have the fullness of understanding, wisdom as that which Created us .

Knowledge = Power , desire, greed just as much as it = Good , Grace, Forgiveness. So Possessing ultimate knowledge in Perfect Goodness is to be an attribute of God, not created man.

But children have to learn on their own. No one will carry them to their destiny.

The fall into form marked the beginning of a very important cycle in the life of the Human Soul. It started out as a path of sorrow, pain and death, but eventuated with not only the Christ, but with a promise that the Human Race will go on to do even "greater things".

Everything we see in the Universe works in cycles. It shouldn't be surprising to know that "The Plan" also works in cycles, like a wheel within a wheel.

 

[blackbelt1961]

But children have to learn on their own. No one will carry them to their destiny.

really?, and you dont give guidance to your kids at all then? and when they do end up on the streets , you wont try to save them?

 

[Neo]

really?, and you dont give guidance to your kids at all then? and when they do end up on the streets , you wont try to save them?

Come on Blackebelt, you know I didn't say either of those things. Guidance is one thing, we are incumbent for forever give our children guidance and to be there always. If we can. However, while we can walk our kids to school we can't actually go into the school and write their tests for them. There is a time when we have to let our children go and let them find their own way in life. As children of the Most High, we too are learning to perfect ourselves but in consonance with Christ's order, "Be ye therefore perfect" - St Matt v.48.11. This is something Christ or God can't do for us. We have to take up our cross of sacrifice and walk the same path of service.

If the fall results in us becoming "God-Aware", then it sounds like a plan well played. We should never feel guilty about being who we are if we believe ourselves to be Sparks of the Eternal Divine.

 

[Delightful Life]

But children have to learn on their own. No one will carry them to their destiny.

Note: thats one of the issues I have with any Deity or Demig_ddess or Maitreya etc coming back bodily and saving us

It reeks of Deus Ex Machina

Of celestial helicopter parents
Not letting their children grow up and learn

Of everything humanity has learned being a nihilistic waste and rather pointless because here comes Mommy and Daddy to save us because we are too incompetent

Its a demeaning belief imho

 

[Luce NDs]

Note: thats one of the issues I have with any Deity or Demig_ddess or Maitreya etc coming back bodily and saving us

It reeks of Deus Ex Machina

Of celestial helicopter parents
Not letting their children grow up and learn

Of everything humanity has learned being a nihilistic waste and rather pointless because here comes Mommy and Daddy to save us because we are too incompetent

Its a demeaning belief imho

Honor thy father and mudder ... but question all things to discover the flaws as laid down for a down right test for the unrighteous ... thus implosion of salty towers? In Ethiopian regions they dig this icon of stuff filling neural gaps ... mental voids?

Snap sis ... and chi too broke out ...

 

[blackbelt1961]

Come on Blackebelt, you know I didn't say either of those things. Guidance is one thing, we are incumbent for forever give our children guidance and to be there always.

ok, so again I ask, if one of your children are down a path to destruction, would you not try and save them?

 

[chansen]

Blackbelt, we have examples of paths of destruction through substance abuse and other pitfalls that young people often encounter and are sucked into. We have evidence of what can happen. Yes, we try to guide our children away from these dangers, but mostly we give them the tools to navigate the world themselves. We can not be with them every moment of every day.

What you're talking about is different, because to you, the "danger" is that children believe differently than you do. That doesn't rank with the other dangers listed above. You have no evidence that these things are actually bad in *any* demonstrable way. Based on how you act, I think I can make a more compelling case that the real danger is actually being like you and believing the same stultifying things you do. And I can appreciate that you disagree and that this is mostly an opinion, but so is your insistence that you have a path that we must follow, or else.