Transgenderism ..... ask your questions!

[Waterfall]

I didn't realize that churches would avoid talking about transgenderism if they didn't have a transgendered person/persons in the congregation. How do you feel about that Rita?

 

[revjohn]

I didn't realize that churches would avoid talking about transgenderism if they didn't have a transgendered person/persons in the congregation. How do you feel about that Rita?

The term avoid suggests that there is something intentional going on. As if we are swerving to prevent collision with an oncoming car or the like.

If there is no on-coming car there is nothing to avoid.

Last night at dinner, did your family discuss the plight of Bent Spike-rush? No? What are you avoiding hmmmmmm? Is Bent Spike-rush suddenly not endangered now? Or are you and your family pushing it over the cliff from endangered to extinct? Well? Are you?

I hope that makes the point.

Congregations do not have infinite points of contact with the world around them because Congregations are not infinite constructions. Not discussing Transgender issues is not pretending that there is no such thing as Transgender issues. It is us saying, as far as we know we are not on that train nor interfering with the track it runs on.

As soon as that changes our response will change.

For good or ill Waterford tends to deal with stuff that is right in its face. Years ago same-sex marriage didn't fly here. A few years back it did fly because we were able to put faces to it. Not simply faces of gay or lesbian members of the congregation but also the faces of the parents of gay and lesbian members of our congregation.

Waterford, more so than any other congregation I have served is also blessed with many special needs members who attend. A bonus for us is that they are often accompanied by a caregiver. Other adults who do not see us as their mission. It is always a privilege to hear about things through their eyes and ears.

In practical rural Ontario we don't set places for folk who are not the table, we will make room for folk who arrive unannounced and unexpected. Some will say that unless the setting exists how will anyone know they are welcome at the table? Which is fair. I wonder how folk who see an empty spot at any table know it belongs to them?

If any two parties are going to come together, both sides need to meet each other.

 

[Jaebius]

I didn't realize that churches would avoid talking about transgenderism if they didn't have a transgendered person/persons in the congregation. How do you feel about that Rita?

The only time at which we normatively even mention transgenderism is during the Toronto Pride Festival.

 

[Waterfall]

@revjohn,But what happens if they meet outside the church and the person is ignorant?

 

[RitaTG]

I didn't realize that churches would avoid talking about transgenderism if they didn't have a transgendered person/persons in the congregation. How do you feel about that Rita?

How do I feel ...... heartbroken...... so very much disheartened.
Coming out in a church is such an enormous undertaking that very very few of us ever find the combination of desperation and courage necessary. Instead we hide in the church ..... hide in plain sight ... make sure we are not noticed.
Afraid ... afraid of the condemantion ... afraid of the reaction.... afraid of the inevitable judgement ..... afraid to the inevitable rejection .... afraid of the faces of those that tsk tsk tsk and feign pity for a sinner such as I.
We are there .... in the churches ... but no dialogue until we are seen?
And here I thought that the church was to seek out those that struggle ..... make a safe place for them.
Not letting me see that the church is preparing and trying to learn tells me to be careful to hide and suffer in silence.
Refusing to engage in the dialogue like the rest of society is trying to do tells me I don't count and that welcome no longer means welcome.
As usual ..... rather than taking the lead in learning and coming to terms with the human condition the church will wait and be ever so slowly dragged kicking and screaming into the present century.
In general it has not been the church that has campaigned and struggled for human rights ..... indeed they were the very ones we had to struggle against.
How do I feel ....... I feel that the dialogue needs to happen .... I am out .... I will go as I am able ....
The emotional cost is great .... but someone needs to do it .... I feel the call .... I have answered .... I will go...
My offer is there ... especially for the churches that are most reluctant..... they need to hear the most.
I offer only gentleness and vulnerability and to let them know how it feels.
See me and others like me as a person first ..... the theology we can work out later ..... I am a person first.
Sorry .... bit of a soapbox moment there .... my passion is burning bright today.

 

[revjohn]

@revjohn,But what happens if they meet outside the church and the person is ignorant?

That depends on how we qualify the ignorance.

Is it willful? Then ignorance is only a sham. A game being played because there is no room made for a new reality.

Is it accidental? Then ignorance is real and the result of a portion of reality being blocked from view. In such an instance dealing with what is already in view is not avoiding what is not seen.

I note you still haven't come clean with respect to Bent Spike-rush. Were you or were you not avoiding it at the table last night?

 

[RitaTG]

The only time at which we normatively even mention transgenderism is during the Toronto Pride Festival.

...and I wonder what that mention is like .....
Would you care to give an example of what sort of thing is said?

 

[Waterfall]

That depends on how we qualify the ignorance.

Is it willful? Then ignorance is only a sham. A game being played because there is no room made for a new reality.

Is it accidental? Then ignorance is real and the result of a portion of reality being blocked from view. In such an instance dealing with what is already in view is not avoiding what is not seen.

I note you still haven't come clean with respect to Bent Spike-rush. Were you or were you not avoiding it at the table last night?

I did not talk about Bent Spike-rush at the table. Did you mention it in any of your sermons?

 

[Waterfall]

How do I feel ...... heartbroken...... so very much disheartened.
Coming out in a church is such an enormous undertaking that very very few of us ever find the combination of desperation and courage necessary. Instead we hide in the church ..... hide in plain sight ... make sure we are not noticed.
Afraid ... afraid of the condemantion ... afraid of the reaction.... afraid of the inevitable judgement ..... afraid to the inevitable rejection .... afraid of the faces of those that tsk tsk tsk and feign pity for a sinner such as I.
We are there .... in the churches ... but no dialogue until we are seen?
And here I thought that the church was to seek out those that struggle ..... make a safe place for them.
Not letting me see that the church is preparing and trying to learn tells me to be careful to hide and suffer in silence.
Refusing to engage in the dialogue like the rest of society is trying to do tells me I don't count and that welcome no longer means welcome.
As usual ..... rather than taking the lead in learning and coming to terms with the human condition the church will wait and be ever so slowly dragged kicking and screaming into the present century.
In general it has not been the church that has campaigned and struggled for human rights ..... indeed they were the very ones we had to struggle against.
How do I feel ....... I feel that the dialogue needs to happen .... I am out .... I will go as I am able ....
The emotional cost is great .... but someone needs to do it .... I feel the call .... I have answered .... I will go...
My offer is there ... especially for the churches that are most reluctant..... they need to hear the most.
I offer only gentleness and vulnerability and to let them know how it feels.
See me and others like me as a person first ..... the theology we can work out later ..... I am a person first.
Sorry .... bit of a soapbox moment there .... my passion is burning bright today.

You're such a gentle soul Rita and your teachings show great patience towards us all here. Thanks.

 

[revjohn]

And here I thought that the church was to seek out those that struggle ..... make a safe place for them.

Ideally yes that is our purpose. I do not have the luxury of living in an ideal world. My lot, apparently, is to work with what is. I am not content to leave it as it is. I am called to assist with the transformation God desires.

So, what is on the agenda for today?

Which lost and hurting one will I dedicate and devote my time to today?

What fire will I put out? What fire can I put out? What fire most needs to be put out.

I am, at best a limited resource. I'm not going to make any apologies for that.

What fires have I been working on professionally this week? Anyone know? If not why not? Why were none of you seeking?

What fires have I been working on personally in the last month? Anyone know? If not why not? Why were none of you seeking?

I suppose most would say, we didn't know because you didn't say. You didn't tell us that you needed help or even that you wanted help. How could we have known, how could we have helped when you didn't tell us?

And I would see the wisdom, the logic and the fairness in that.

Yet when I say the same what's the response? Somehow I'm callous and willfully ignorant. Somehow I'm avoiding important things that I ought to be in the middle of. Hiding behind this or that excuse.

This thread would be a great resource to Carolla's Done thread because it proves the point.

No matter what I have been up to my eyeballs in personally or professionally is of no consequence if I'm not just as deep in what is most important to some other.

Fine. Maybe I'm not being particularly helpful this today. Am I actually working against anyone or am I getting out of the way and letting those with the more hands on experience do their thing?

Perhaps I should just get back to my more mundane and ultimately unimportant stuff.

 

[revjohn]

I did not talk about Bent Spike-rush at the table. Did you mention it in any of your sermons?

Nope we have more pressing matters at the moment. Not that a species on the endangered list is something we are ignoring.

 

[RitaTG]

Ideally yes that is our purpose. I do not have the luxury of living in an ideal world. My lot, apparently, is to work with what is. I am not content to leave it as it is. I am called to assist with the transformation God desires.

So, what is on the agenda for today?

Which lost and hurting one will I dedicate and devote my time to today?

What fire will I put out? What fire can I put out? What fire most needs to be put out.

I am, at best a limited resource. I'm not going to make any apologies for that.

What fires have I been working on professionally this week? Anyone know? If not why not? Why were none of you seeking?

What fires have I been working on personally in the last month? Anyone know? If not why not? Why were none of you seeking?

I suppose most would say, we didn't know because you didn't say. You didn't tell us that you needed help or even that you wanted help. How could we have known, how could we have helped when you didn't tell us?

And I would see the wisdom, the logic and the fairness in that.

Yet when I say the same what's the response? Somehow I'm callous and willfully ignorant. Somehow I'm avoiding important things that I ought to be in the middle of. Hiding behind this or that excuse.

This thread would be a great resource to Carolla's Done thread because it proves the point.

No matter what I have been up to my eyeballs in personally or professionally is of no consequence if I'm not just as deep in what is most important to some other.

Fine. Maybe I'm not being particularly helpful this today. Am I actually working against anyone or am I getting out of the way and letting those with the more hands on experience do their thing?

Perhaps I should just get back to my more mundane and ultimately unimportant stuff.

My apologies for offending Rev John ..... that was not my intent.....
I should have been more clear ..... my comment was directed to the churches that are purposely resistant .... not just merely busy.
I was trying to express how it feels to be deliberately avoided by the church and I have missed the mark.
If I may ..... my yearning is not to be the most important issue .... it is simply to be an issue worth a bit of time and consideration.
When that occurs .... well ..... I am hoping for sooner rather than later of course.
Again ... to all and you in particular Rev John ..... I apologize for clumsy words....

 

[Waterfall]

Ideally yes that is our purpose. I do not have the luxury of living in an ideal world. My lot, apparently, is to work with what is. I am not content to leave it as it is. I am called to assist with the transformation God desires.

So, what is on the agenda for today?

Which lost and hurting one will I dedicate and devote my time to today?

What fire will I put out? What fire can I put out? What fire most needs to be put out.

I am, at best a limited resource. I'm not going to make any apologies for that.

What fires have I been working on professionally this week? Anyone know? If not why not? Why were none of you seeking?

What fires have I been working on personally in the last month? Anyone know? If not why not? Why were none of you seeking?

I suppose most would say, we didn't know because you didn't say. You didn't tell us that you needed help or even that you wanted help. How could we have known, how could we have helped when you didn't tell us?

And I would see the wisdom, the logic and the fairness in that.

Yet when I say the same what's the response? Somehow I'm callous and willfully ignorant. Somehow I'm avoiding important things that I ought to be in the middle of. Hiding behind this or that excuse.

This thread would be a great resource to Carolla's Done thread because it proves the point.

No matter what I have been up to my eyeballs in personally or professionally is of no consequence if I'm not just as deep in what is most important to some other.

Fine. Maybe I'm not being particularly helpful this today. Am I actually working against anyone or am I getting out of the way and letting those with the more hands on experience do their thing?

Perhaps I should just get back to my more mundane and ultimately unimportant stuff.

Well if you need a break, Rita could speak at your church. Anyway, I apologize if I have offended you.

 

[Jaebius]

...and I wonder what that mention is like .....
Would you care to give an example of what sort of thing is said?

Thanks for the question, RitaTG. However, I'd prefer not to.

 

[RitaTG]

Thanks for the question, RitaTG. However, I'd prefer not to.

Figured ......

 

[revjohn]

My apologies for offending Rev John

Thank you.

My skin is thinner and more tender today for reasons not of your doing. What I would normally shrug off is landing more heavily than it ought.

I have a few more weeks left before my annual trip out to the Rock. With care I can last that long.

I apologize for my weakness and for venting at you.

 

[Jaebius]

Figured ......

Okay.

 

[revjohn]

Well if you need a break, Rita could speak at your church. Anyway, I apologize if I have offended you.

A break is not long in the coming. I'm not counting the sleeps.

Had this thread come up a few months ago I could have suggested RitaTG for at least one week of Sunday Supply. Alas we are trying something new this year which I have been advocating since I arrived and we will not be looking elsewhere for Sunday Services, members of the congregation will be taking lead.

As I mentioned above to RitaTG I am particularly vulnerable and weak this morning. Not for anything anyone here has done. We (my family and I) are not weathering the recent sea of storms as well as we might have hoped. Any one of them we would have handled with grace and strength. There simply has been no respite this month and it is taking a chunk out of all of us.

Thank you for your apology. I should have been more gracious and patient. I apologize for that failure.

 

[RitaTG]

Thank you.

My skin is thinner and more tender today for reasons not of your doing. What I would normally shrug off is landing more heavily than it ought.

I have a few more weeks left before my annual trip out to the Rock. With care I can last that long.

I apologize for my weakness and for venting at you.

HUGS dear friend .... gentle hugs ...... we are both a bit weary I suppose....

 

[Waterfall]

A break is not long in the coming. I'm not counting the sleeps.

Had this thread come up a few months ago I could have suggested RitaTG for at least one week of Sunday Supply. Alas we are trying something new this year which I have been advocating since I arrived and we will not be looking elsewhere for Sunday Services, members of the congregation will be taking lead.

As I mentioned above to RitaTG I am particularly vulnerable and weak this morning. Not for anything anyone here has done. We (my family and I) are not weathering the recent sea of storms as well as we might have hoped. Any one of them we would have handled with grace and strength. There simply has been no respite this month and it is taking a chunk out of all of us.

Thank you for your apology. I should have been more gracious and patient. I apologize for that failure.

I hear you, many storms I've fervently searched where scripture says it's okay to "dog paddle" rather than walk on it.... I usually end up asking for a life preserver.
More hugs to add to Rita's.