Tough Love / Enabler : Community differences

[GiancarloZ]

I think the key statement is “ if you keep doing the same thing over and over again, don’t expect different results”.
Dysfunctional families sometimes have arranged themselves with their disfunction - who are we to judge if this is bad or good.
Just don’t expect anything different.
Giancarlos example shows that the family tried different avenues and eventually was successful.It wouldn’t have been if the family member hadn’t agreed to the changes.
Giancarlo, it sounds to me from your description, that those decisions how to handle a problematic family member are not made by the whole family in a “ democratic” kind of family discussion but rather as a decision by the oldest male or patriarch- is that right?

I agree that the problematic family member needs to agree with whatever are the family decisions.
In Brazil we have a saying: a family is by no means a democracy. Generally the oldest and/or most well off family member has the word. In my family it happens to be my grandpa, but lots of families have this figure in a matriarch. In my mother's family, that is usually a female role. My mom is the one in charge of her siblings now, and the extended family matriarch is her oldest aunt.

 

[Mrs.Anteater]

I agree that the problematic family member needs to agree with whatever are the family decisions.
In Brazil we have a saying: a family is by no means a democracy. Generally the oldest and/or most well off family member has the word. In my family it happens to be my grandpa, but lots of families have this figure in a matriarch. In my mother's family, that is usually a female role. My mom is the one in charge of her siblings now, and the extended family matriarch is her oldest aunt.

This is really interesting. I really appreciate what you contribute to WC2 , Giancarlo. How do you see yourself within this tradition? How are the roles between youself and your wife?

 

[KayTheCurler]

My partner grew up in probably the best functioning part of his extended family. Although his alcoholic father died on the streets my guy has no real memory of him. His grandfather was alcoholic and abusive and this disfunction affected the four children. Three were alcoholic, one married a woman who told him - get drunk and I'm leaving. He didn't get drunk. That uncle and his wife looked after another alcoholic uncle. They would have quit years ago but neighbours kept bringing him back when they found him passed out along the road.. Yep - your extended family and neighbours have some influence on what you do when there is a problem. The caregiving couple said they could only keep accepting him back because they had a shack for him to live in. The two adult sons accepted responsibility for cleaning him up when he was home. He was a delightful guy when sober!

 

[GiancarloZ]

This is really interesting. I really appreciate what you contribute to WC2 , Giancarlo. How do you see yourself within this tradition? How are the roles between youself and your wife?

Thanks @Mrs.Anteater, I also appreciate your contributions!

Well, my wife and I haven't had any experience like this so far so I don't know how it's gonna be.

In general matters, she's got better stewardship gifts than I do, so she's the one in charge of the money and all the buying decisions. I'm the one in charge of deciding to which charities we're donating. We share the cleaning, and I do more now because I'm working from home.

Right now if we had someone in the family in an extreme situation, I'm sure she would agree to help at least financially. It helps to offer a spare room when you have a big house, which is not our case.

 

[GiancarloZ]

My partner grew up in probably the best functioning part of his extended family. Although his alcoholic father died on the streets my guy has no real memory of him. His grandfather was alcoholic and abusive and this disfunction affected the four children. Three were alcoholic, one married a woman who told him - get drunk and I'm leaving. He didn't get drunk. That uncle and his wife looked after another alcoholic uncle. They would have quit years ago but neighbours kept bringing him back when they found him passed out along the road.. Yep - your extended family and neighbours have some influence on what you do when there is a problem. The caregiving couple said they could only keep accepting him back because they had a shack for him to live in. The two adult sons accepted responsibility for cleaning him up when he was home. He was a delightful guy when sober!

The eyes of the community sure help to make people charitable. I'm. Sure this kind of accountability is what makes Brazilians and Latins in general to take relatives in. Otherwise they would be cut of all social circles, including church and clubs.

 

[ChemGal]

I watched Abducted in Plain Sight. Considering the timing of this conversation I really noticed the amount of enabling what went on. Enabling can hurt so much more than just the one person who is allowed to do inappropriate things. I suspect Robert Berchtold was enabled for a very long time, well before he met the Brobergs.

 

[Lastpointe]

i think there is a large cultural difference with countries like Brazil that still have large family cohesion and our culture which is very much a nuclear family. So here isn’t as much back up and support.

I know one family whose teenage daughter was heavily into drugs. Under 18 so they forced her into a residential rehab place. She left at 18 “cured”. Came home, re connected with pusher boyfriend. Parents refused to allow her to live at home. So she moved into boyfriends mothers place who had no issues with the drugs. It is a sad situation. Trying to lay rules down didn’t work.

I was a big believer in logical conséquentes with my children. Didn’t always make us popular. But being popular, as someone else said, is not the role of parent

I do think when people use the phrase tough love though we mean many different things. It seems to my memory that the movement was at times very militant. Break a rule, kick them out kind of thing

I remember from the Paul Bernardo trial that Leslie Maffafy had been a bit of a wild teen and that the night she ran into Bernardo, she had missed curfew, the door had been locked and that she had been on her way to sleep at a friends place. I remember the profound grief of the parents, they had locked the door on her

 

[Mrs.Anteater]

I watched Abducted in Plain Sight. Considering the timing of this conversation I really noticed the amount of enabling what went on. Enabling can hurt so much more than just the one person who is allowed to do inappropriate things. I suspect Robert Berchtold was enabled for a very long time, well before he met the Brobergs.

I started watching it, but it was so sickening, I stopped. Considering the time, people didn’t know much about pedophiles, but they were all around. We had a cousin, who would come for visits ( he traveled a lot for work) and take my older teenage siblings out. I don’t think he did anything to them, years later, he kissed me on the forehead once when I stayed over at their place and I spend a long night with little sleep after that. Years later, it turned out, that he had abused all of his three or four kids.
There wasn’t enough talked about that. There was also not enough talk that you are allowed to talk to someone about that in those days. We also had a neighbour who liked me to sit on his knee longer than I liked it. He had only boys, but later, when he had grand daughters, he did something to her and the whole relationship blew up. I can’t say for sure, but I think that my parents didn’t have a clue and might have encouraged me to sit on his lap.

 

[Tabitha]

To me tough love is following through on reasonable consequences and not enabling
With hockey billets-the one who would leave phone case but not phone it kitchen (rule was no electronics at night) would get woken to hand over his phone. Long term consequence was he was not allowed back for his gr. 12 year.

Like Mrs. Anteater-to limit wifi-I drove around with the router in my van a few times (easier for me then resetting passwords).
My kids pay rent when not in school-even my son on a disability pension. If I didn't charge rent-paying for his own place would be a huge shock and he would not learn budgeting skills. The love comes in with the amount of rent. It is below market value.

 

[Carolla]

To me tough love is following through on reasonable consequences and not enabling

Also my view & how it was lived out in our family. We had lots of interesting adolescent adventures here! Including at one time having one of our kids move out as they were not willing to adhere to the basic minimum house rules. It was clear what would need to occur for them to return - which they did after a while & things went much better. When one sets boundaries & expectations, it important to follow through - so these things need to be very carefully & intentionally thought through by families before going that route - it's not a quick or simple or easy decision for a parent - at least it was not for us, that is certain. But it was the best thing at the time for all involved, and I think this still in hindsight.

 

[Mrs.Anteater]

To me tough love is following through on reasonable consequences and not enabling
With hockey billets-the one who would leave phone case but not phone it kitchen (rule was no electronics at night) would get woken to hand over his phone. Long term consequence was he was not allowed back for his gr. 12 year.

Like Mrs. Anteater-to limit wifi-I drove around with the router in my van a few times (easier for me then resetting passwords).
My kids pay rent when not in school-even my son on a disability pension. If I didn't charge rent-paying for his own place would be a huge shock and he would not learn budgeting skills. The love comes in with the amount of rent. It is below market value.

I think the tough love is something every parent needs to learn. Its the basics that means you are the parent not the playmate, who needs the kids approval. It takes strength. It also can be funny. When my son refused to brush his teeth for the first time- maybe he was about five or six, and went to bed without brushing and it was already late, I offered him once to go right then, after refusal, I didn’t allow him to go brushing anymore. It must have been the serious tone of my voice ( besides the argument of how bad it will be for his teeth), he started crying and begged me to allow him to brush his teeth. Of course, I did. We never had a problem with it again.

 

[Mrs.Anteater]

Also my view & how it was lived out in our family. We had lots of interesting adolescent adventures here! Including at one time having one of our kids move out as they were not willing to adhere to the basic minimum house rules. It was clear what would need to occur for them to return - which they did after a while & things went much better. When one sets boundaries & expectations, it important to follow through - so these things need to be very carefully & intentionally thought through by families before going that route - it's not a quick or simple or easy decision for a parent - at least it was not for us, that is certain. But it was the best thing at the time for all involved, and I think this still in hindsight.

I do think that kids want those rules as much as they want to test them. I am still somewhat surprised that my son never even said he wanted to move out with dad instead of living with me. At 10 years old, I think he knew which parent was more reliable, and he knew what he needed. Didn’t mean he didn’t fight it. But fighting and arguing rules is better than getting everything material plus a lot of unkept promises.

 

[Carolla]

I absolutely agree Mrs.Anteater!

 

[KayTheCurler]

To me tough love is following through on reasonable consequences and not enabling
With hockey billets-the one who would leave phone case but not phone it kitchen (rule was no electronics at night) would get woken to hand over his phone. Long term consequence was he was not allowed back for his gr. 12 year.

Like Mrs. Anteater-to limit wifi-I drove around with the router in my van a few times (easier for me then resetting passwords).
My kids pay rent when not in school-even my son on a disability pension. If I didn't charge rent-paying for his own place would be a huge shock and he would not learn budgeting skills. The love comes in with the amount of rent. It is below market value.

I once drove away from the yard leaving a thirteen year old throwing a full scale hissy fit. He had been told what had to happen before going to soccer. I never had to remind him again that before going to soccer your chores must be done (any school work plus a 'family' job like brining in firewood, collecting eggs etc). .

A friend charged her young working kids rent in keeping with the going rate locally. When they had finished growing up and were ready to move out to be self sufficient adults she returned half the money they had paid her.

 

[Mrs.Anteater]

A friend charged her young working kids rent in keeping with the going rate locally. When they had finished growing up and were ready to move out to be self sufficient adults she returned half the money they had paid her.

Ha, I did something similar- juniors first business idea in Grade 9 was to buy a ride on lawn mower and do the neighbours lawns ( rental properties, most didn’t have a garage or shed to store a mower). The deal was that he had to pay half of it from his income. I secretly put it all back onto his account. He even printed himself business cards and left them at the doors. He didn’t charge enough, but it was a good learning experience.

 

[Pinga]

I remember driving home one day, and the boys were bickering in the back seat. probably 12 or 13 and 8 or 9.
i was tired of it, and they weren't listening.
The older was the primary.

I cautioned if it didn't stop, he would walk home.
He was sure shocked when he did have to walk home.
It was a safe time of day, and it was a long walk, but, a reasonable one.

 

[KayTheCurler]

That is another thing we used. Nowadays it can be problematic - a younger friend tossed her kids out to walk for a while and the cops picked them up!

 

[GiancarloZ]

My parents have surely done all of kinds of actions like the ones you're reporting. And it helped us to become responsible.
But in the situation some family member is on drugs or alcohol and it's clearly an illness with which they need help to get clean, or if they lose a job and it's hard to find another, I personally don't consider a negative as the same line of tough love that has been reported here. I'm not saying it doesn't suck. And the person has probably their share of responsibility because they haven't saved any money or because they "played with fire" with drugs and alcohol. But still, will this person be able to overcome this situation without the friendly hand (and maybe arm) of their family?

 

[Seeler]

I remember from the Paul Bernardo trial that Leslie Maffafy had been a bit of a wild teen and that the night she ran into Bernardo, she had missed curfew, the door had been locked and that she had been on her way to sleep at a friends place. I remember the profound grief of the parents, they had locked the door on her

Lastpointe, I was remembering that case as I read through this thread. I never lock the door and my kids – I sat up and waited for them and they had to face me either then or in the morning.
The problem in the city is a difficulty in getting a taxi late in the evening. And once they left at an event early, before the crowds were pouring out onto the streets, they might have to wait this much is an hour for a taxi.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I think of tough love as something different than what is often defined as "tough love"
Its tough to see or to welcome someone that represents everything that is wrong within a family system. Its tough for the family to see the whole family is part of the problem when the one who shows up at the door "acts" out the problem often in unhealthy ways. Its tough to see that those family members who supposedly have it all together have as much to do with "enabling" bad behaviour because one person in the family was silently chosen to hold all of what is wrong within some family systems. When they show up at your door its a reminder to EVERYONE all is not well....and most people dont appreciate that because they've "moved on" with their life and its an incovenient truth thats been pushed under the rug. The truth is is that its easier to see someone with cancer than to see a family system engulfed in a "dance" that perpetuates one or sometimes more than one, holding the pain for everyone....so the rest dont have to do it. Sometimes its more satisfying and noble to give to the poor and volunteer help to strangers than help the one right in your own family....because its too personal and old wounds get reopened.
So in my opinion..if a family member shows up at your door its not just about them, its about the whole family.....they are only the Family Crucible.(which is also a book worth reading)
Its very hard to heal without family participation and everyone learning how to step out of their silently assigned roles. Especially hard for the symptom bearer of all thats wrong...or the "good one" who can do no wrong.
Change the dance and all hell breaks loose....but the healing also begins.

Excellent insight.