Survey of UCC ministers

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GO3838 said:
A media specialist who works for my union once told me that bad publicity is still good publicity.
(Basically the idea that any publicity is better than no publicity.)
I'm not sure I agree with his opinion.

I remember (more than a few years ago) when Bill Phipps was moderator, and he told media that he didn't believe in the Resurrection.
(Or at least, that's what the media reported. (You see, Pinga, that I'm switching up to someone else, and not mentioning GV?)

And I remember that the minister we had at the time called an "open table" evening, and any one from the church could come to a discussion evening
to discuss about what it meant to them to have a moderator who said he didn't believe in the Resurrection, a part of the New Creed.)

And I remember people sharing their thoughts: some were devastated, others were intrigued, and some felt he had been manipulated by the press.
Some thought that he should never have tried to explain complicated theological doctrine to a journalist who would not quote verbatim into a mainstream newspaper.

But I remember that the "open table" discussion had stimulated us and revitalized us, because we got to rethink our faith and share with each
other. Richard Bott's survey probably did that for some of the participants in the survey.
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It's a shame that that same "Open Table" idea wasn't carried on when it came to other moderators.
 
GO3838 said:
I'm not familiar with the Vancouver Sun, so I've no idea if it's a newspaper that's commmiteed to journalism excellence, or if it's a newspaper that
wants to make money from sensationalistic stories.
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The article was written by Doug Todd who covers religion and faith for the Vancouver Sun. I like his work.
 
Oh, good. So if the article was in a religion and faith section, and someone can vouch for that journalist's work, then there's
even less chance of the survey information being misrepresented.
 
The word "Sun" tends to be a four-letter word in journalism...... if you're familiar with Sunmedia.

But not every newspaper with "Sun" in it is owned by Sunmedia and is obligated to uphold Sunmedia's values.
 
I have never seen a full Vancouver Sun.

But based on Doug Todd's work alone, I am guessing it bears little resemblance to the Toronto Sun. :whistle:
 
As a kid I was a paperboy for the Vancouver Sun and it was indeed a legitimate paper like The Edmonton Journal or the Montreal Gazette Or the Toronto Star. No connection at all to the cheesy tabloid Sun chain.
 
There are certain flaws with the survey, which Richard Bott references in his presentation. It is much better than some general supposition from who nodded in agreement at conferenes,but, by nature of the survey, it isn't going to be something that you can depend upon.

Do you feel it is worthwhile to do a followup survey at some cost?
How do you feel this survey in its current state should be referenced.
 
I thought that Todd's article was a very good summary and discussion of the survey. He has a very clear bias against Gretta (and, apparently thinks little of Eastern Canadian media - which, in all honesty, I have some sympathy with on this issue, given their over-hyping of the Gretta situation), as evidenced by these words, which to me seem dismissive of both Gretta and the Eastern Canadian media:

Douglas Todd said:
I suspect this kind of reality-check won’t stop a lot of Eastern Canadian journalists (predominantly from the otherwise useful CBC) from continuing to gift Vosper a great deal of pseudo-controversial attention, which will in turn help her sell her pro-atheistic books.
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So there's clear bias in the article, but a decent discussion of the survey.

As for the Vancouver Sun and Sun Media - well, it's complicated.

The Vancouver Sun is more than 100 years old, so it long predates Sun Media. It's currently published by the Pacific Newspaper Group. The Pacific Newspaper Group is owned by Post Media - who are best known for publishing the National Post (a conservative newspaper that I nevertheless rather enjoy reading - I find it conservative, but generally fair and balanced; a decent perspective. Not long ago (last year I think) Post Media acquired Sun Media, although they haven't merged any newspapers. So the Vancouver Sun is related to Sun Media - sort of corporate cousins, I guess - but has never been published or owned by Sun Media.

In some ways the relationship is strange because Sun newspapers compete against Post newspapers in some cities even though they're under common ownership once one gets high enough. Examples:

Calgary Sun (Sun Media) vs Calgary Herald (Post Media)
Edmonton Sun (Sun Media) vs Edmonton Journal (Post Media)
Ottawa Sun (Sun Media) vs Ottawa Citizen (Post Media)

and - more confusing because of the names of the papers -

The Province of Vancouver (Sun Media) vs Vancouver Sun (Post Media)

By and large, I'd say that even though they're under the same ownership, Post Media newspapers are generally looked on as more respectable than Sun newspapers, and they appeal to a different readership.

How that mixed up ownership situation impacts the slant of the Vancouver Sun and Douglas Todd in his interpretation of the survey is for readers to decide.
 
I thought Doug Todd's article was a good one. Agreed that he comes across as somewhat flippant towards Gretta but he has written very thoughtfully about her in the past. So if I look at this article as one in a series it doesn't feel biased to me.

Certainly Todd has formed an opinion about GV. So have most of us who post on these threads.
 
paradox3 said:
GV's worldview certainly encompasses spirituality but I would not call it one of faith. But, hey, this might be another semantic argument to carry on ad infinitum.

Oh, the limitations of language. :eek:
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Heh, heh! Is language God ? Some would say so as extracted from that firm linguistic statement at the beginning of the Gospel of John!

Then John in old linguistics is considered a common (or pagan) thing ... under the concerns of Anglo-Saxon Tyrants say that commoners must be assimilated by breeding, or husbandry! Thus the screw up of the profound thought process we now believe to be internalized ... although many superficial persona (character) will believe there is nothing inside space ... an expandable story! Some exclusive persona even believe such thought is beyond us in a reciprocal (upended) way!

Yet do real people extend themselves to accept limitations of language that are beyond them as a curiosity (curi-Oz-ite) ? These are people of virtue ... goodly enough to be out there getting into the pain and pathe of real lives ... can you imagine people with minds that small that can expound upon the complex a' fixation of simplicity? It could be temporal ... and thoughts too do pass!

Relax ... in the end ... you too won't know about consuming desires ... even ones about knowing control theory ... pure avarice! It is sort of an ass in 9 application to entertain a'far thought of a' theists that are now gone ... presently out there ... fearing a recycle as more than bi cycle code of gyro scoping the terrain! There are more than 3 D's ... decisions about how, when, where, why, hoo, and what redacted the aboriginal tongues ... the reson things are not thought of the same way ... diversity roué's ...
If you say it different, the complexity of life can be buried for those wishing simple projections ...
 
Do some people like KJ of Anglo-Saxon extraction believe their word was god and thus laws, for "loss" as luce (floater) to the diverse community that is the virtue aL good part of the spread of intellect so that no one knows all until we can get it together from that dispersed in black and white ... black being abstract allocation? Thus the pits of the mine that emotional extreme feel is ass &nein! Nosh-ite!

I feel that pull of the unreal or imaginary world that is perfect to be out of the world of power ... as power corrupts ... causing war and little room for imaginative dialogue about irrational numbers that lead us ... a trump card in satyr?
 
Is it proper to be flippant and sunny towards reality ... as physically the real is temporary where the darkness is unseen and permanent according to one media ... but you cannot see that from here as we are generally led by fixed law ... as expressed as a media of serving to govern the people ... not necessarily for the populations (governing for the people) benefit as pragmatism!

Such utilitarianism is flushed to lead towards the powerful in the external world ... diverse from the internal world ... why ancient powers despised looking into sole attributes. This leads to the prosecution of people like Da Vinci, Michael 'n Gelo (dark eloism) Gabriel, Copernicus and a hoard of other profound processers that became aware of their limitations of controlling anything in the expanse ...

One should be aware of wee things ... once known as aD'm-ism but an understanding truly lost in a world worshiping passions as power ... when they are under power of thoughtful under seers ... lessor powers as subtle to those that are high rangers?

You really don't need to know that ... or so it is said by persones that would really like to keep the common folk a little stunned ... a word derived from naïveté ... said to be a stupid connection by those believing they are in the know ... when not! Considering what individual humans know ... we are devoid of collectivism, so we can't gather much ... a lesson on the pathe of learning ... tis a pain, no? Sort of like rye po'ethics ... quite thick to read into ... as the standards were set of adepts ... and so it goes 'd on! Hardly notices except by exceptional less Unes ... as attuned to the far out inner domains! Kind a like genetics that we know far less than we believe as some powers screw around with what is beyond them in small crevasses ! As this works up the food chain ... we discover we bleu ID! Only then is metaphysics free to observe without interference from physical powers ... that are left dark ... you sometimes see it as in that white flash in their I'z ... iconic! God did say there would be a sighing ... groan over amplified?

Now listen up ... the lesser (aD'nism) is over your mortal head ... spatial! Where thoughts are dispersed ... when rume allows ... you know Rumi? Heis loaded with undisclosed giggles, setting the overly confident in a state of panic ... as expressed in media ...
 
On the subject of unbiased journalism.

Several years ago I served on a jury in a fairly well-publicized trial. Throughout the trial the judge cautioned us against viewing any of the media coverage.

When the whole thing was over I looked at the ongoing coverage of the trial. Minimal information was publicized throughout the weeks we were in court but it exploded during the few days we were sequestered.

The extent of the bias held by most (not all) of the reporters truly shocked me!

I have never read the paper the same way since.
 
paradox3 said:
On the subject of unbiased journalism.

Several years ago I served on a jury in a fairly well-publicized trial. Throughout the trial the judge cautioned us against viewing any of the media coverage.

When the whole thing was over I looked at the ongoing coverage of the trial. Minimal information was publicized throughout the weeks we were in court but it exploded during the few days we were sequestered.

The extent of the bias held by most (not all) of the reporters truly shocked me!

I have never read the paper the same way since.
Click to expand...

Such is the pain of knowing ... once called forensic pathology, or legal departure from common thought and virtue all focus!

It is now illegal to do it here as the powerful leaders have shown by their role ins ... :ROFLMAO:

Tis a peculiar thing, once known as ad hoc ... a Greco-Latin thing about who was well ABBA'dead ... thus the crank continues ad Infiniti ... with patience at night you see it come around ...
 
Actually I seldom hear Greta Vosper mentioned in Eastern Canada. I think this is more of an issue with Toronto area churches and spills over to the west.
 
I felt reassured by the survey. Actually a bit surprised that there were not more on the progressive side (although not to the extent of being atheists). But then I remembered some of the clergy personnel I know through Presbytery and realized that I probably sit near, lunch with, and volunteer for committee work with those who are on the progressive side and so overestimate their numbers. I do remember a big to-do a few years back at Conference when there was a drama about a historic social issue (establishing co-operatives) in the area. The Youth at Conference were invited to watch the play and part way through some of their leaders lead them out - objecting to some of the rough language being used in the play. The 16 year old girl who was travelling with me was furious. She had studied the Coop movement in school and was anxious to see the play. But one minister in particular objected strongly to his 13 year old foster son being subjected to that crap at a Christian gathering. I guess the UCC is made up of a lot of different people with different views.
 
revsdd said:
I thought that Todd's article was a very good summary and discussion of the survey. He has a very clear bias against Gretta (and, apparently thinks little of Eastern Canadian media - which, in all honesty, I have some sympathy with on this issue, given their over-hyping of the Gretta situation), as evidenced by these words, which to me seem dismissive of both Gretta and the Eastern Canadian media:



So there's clear bias in the article, but a decent discussion of the survey.

As for the Vancouver Sun and Sun Media - well, it's complicated.

The Vancouver Sun is more than 100 years old, so it long predates Sun Media. It's currently published by the Pacific Newspaper Group. The Pacific Newspaper Group is owned by Post Media - who are best known for publishing the National Post (a conservative newspaper that I nevertheless rather enjoy reading - I find it conservative, but generally fair and balanced; a decent perspective. Not long ago (last year I think) Post Media acquired Sun Media, although they haven't merged any newspapers. So the Vancouver Sun is related to Sun Media - sort of corporate cousins, I guess - but has never been published or owned by Sun Media.

In some ways the relationship is strange because Sun newspapers compete against Post newspapers in some cities even though they're under common ownership once one gets high enough. Examples:

Calgary Sun (Sun Media) vs Calgary Herald (Post Media)
Edmonton Sun (Sun Media) vs Edmonton Journal (Post Media)
Ottawa Sun (Sun Media) vs Ottawa Citizen (Post Media)

and - more confusing because of the names of the papers -

The Province of Vancouver (Sun Media) vs Vancouver Sun (Post Media)

By and large, I'd say that even though they're under the same ownership, Post Media newspapers are generally looked on as more respectable than Sun newspapers, and they appeal to a different readership.

How that mixed up ownership situation impacts the slant of the Vancouver Sun and Douglas Todd in his interpretation of the survey is for readers to decide.
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Actually, Sun Media ceased to exist a year ago. The whole shooting match was sold to Postmedia by Quebecor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Media#History (last paragraph)
 
revsdd said:
That's true. But the former Sun Media newspapers still compete against the other Postmedia papers and have their own unique style as tabloids, whereas the Postmedia papers tend to be more traditional and less outrageous.
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Well, except the ones like the London Free Press that weren't tabloids in the first place. Sun did own some daily broadsheets, too.

And I really can't see that lasting forever. Given the state of the newpaper biz, it wouldn't surprise me for them take one brand online-only or something like that as part of a future consolidation. It will all come down to how many papers are selling and to what degree they think one brand is impacting sales of the other.
 
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