Survey of UCC ministers

[Luce NDs]

I don't understand what you're saying.

Good ... in the world of lies it is best to be unheard ... like a buried light ...as "c"?

Piles of words are commonly denied ... tis the way of god until sparks erupt! That neon bleu flash in the sounds of silence ... a quiet that many cannot gather ... thus the sense of isn't ... and thus is wasn't the reason "Y"!

But how many Christians really wonder about consequence if they believe in fore ordained circumstances ... thus it goes!

 

[Luce NDs]

What exactly is dark energy ... black lights?

 

[BetteTheRed]

I can imagine rather like one who wormed her way into a home and gained control over gullible people loaded down with sins.

No. Like a child who has learned exactly what lessons have been taught in the home, and has developed into a human with beliefs that are a natural consequence of that learning. Of the two children of mine that I raised, neither has a character flaw, nor fine point, that I don't recognize the origin of. Seems to me that Gretta's beliefs are a completely natural and normal result of her church upbringing. She's articulate, smart, and ethical.

 

[Luce NDs]

What are Rome ante IQs ... but brute opposition to sophistication in complexity ... thus naïveté goes on ... with great encouragement from authority ... it is best if the common folk don't know ...

Keep it simple people ... like the bible? A virtue all curios -ite! Word for amalgam in the rift!

Resolution of things we can't say by roués ...

 

[Jaebius]

She's articulate, smart, and ethical.

She does seem to be articulate and smart. I've seen nothing that suggests to me that she's ethical. Does she have authentic saving faith in Jesus Christ? Is she able to teach the congregation she serves the essential truths of the Christian faith? How does she foster her congregation's participation in God's mission of redemption through Christ?

 

[BetteTheRed]

Jae, sometimes it's like talking apples and oranges with you.

What you describe are the position description of an evangelical Christian minister.

I was talking about the character attributes of a human. Authenticity, compassion, prophecy.

 

[Jaebius]

Jae, sometimes it's like talking apples and oranges with you.

What you describe are the position description of an evangelical Christian minister.

I was talking about the character attributes of a human. Authenticity, compassion, prophecy.

Okay, you get that Rev. Vosper is the senior leader of a Christian church in a Christian denomination, right? She should therefore meet the qualifications of a Christian leader. It's wonderful that she has the qualities of a "good" human. If she's going to lead a church she needs to be someone deeply in love with Jesus as well.

 

[Mendalla]

Does she have authentic saving faith in Jesus Christ?

By your standard, I imagine a lot of theistic UCCan ministers would fail your test so this is hardly an issue with her.

Is she able to teach the congregation she serves the essential truths of the Christian faith?

She would say so. She just has a different understanding of the "essential truths" than you. As do, again, many theistic UCCan ministers.

How does she foster her congregation's participation in God's mission of redemption through Christ?

Again, many theistic UCCan ministers would not word their ministry that way, should they be reviewed, too? Not everyone who calls themselves Christian is tightly focussed on "redemption", at least in the narrow sense that you tend to mean.

The fact is, she has never hidden her faith from the world, which would indeed be unethical. Calling yourself Christian while not believing in a redemption-based theology is a matter of definition, not ethics.

 

[paradox3]

Jae, sometimes it's like talking apples and oranges with you.

What you describe are the position description of an evangelical Christian minister.

I was talking about the character attributes of a human. Authenticity, compassion, prophecy.

It has been mentioned several times on this site that Gretta lost two-thirds of her congregation 8 years ago (or so) for theological and other reasons. I submit that you know absolutely nothing about any compassion that was extended or not extended to these individuals.

 

[Jaebius]

The fact is, she has never hidden her faith from the world, which would indeed be unethical. Calling yourself Christian while not believing in a redemption-based theology is a matter of definition, not ethics.

What faith Mendalla? She freely admits herself that she's an atheist.

A senior leader in a Christian church should be able meet the qualifications of an overseer found in the Bible. Can she?

See 1 Timothy 3:1-7.

 

[paradox3]

What faith Mendalla? She freely admits herself that she's an atheist.

GV's worldview certainly encompasses spirituality but I would not call it one of faith. But, hey, this might be another semantic argument to carry on ad infinitum.

Oh, the limitations of language.

 

[BetteTheRed]

It has been mentioned several times on this site that Gretta lost two-thirds of her congregation 8 years ago (or so) for theological and other reasons. I submit that you know absolutely nothing about any compassion that was extended or not extended to these individuals.

Correct, I know nothing of how any number of people, in and out of West Hill, might have responded 8 years ago. Divisions rarely go well, nor bring out the best in people. I absolutely believe that the split was very painful. I do not know that Gretta Vosper is personally compassionate in every situation any more than I know Jae is... She claims "just and compassionate living" as a goal of the non-theistic church, which is why I used the word.

 

[Pinga]

sigh, so in a thread about the survey ...and results..... our membership falls into discussing vosper again arguing with Jae & Chansen.
and we wonder why folks get frustrated with WonderCafe...

 

[Mendalla]

sigh, so in a thread about the survey ...and results..... our membership falls into discussing vosper again arguing with Jae & Chansen.
and we wonder why folks get frustrated with WonderCafe...

Know what? You're right. I just deleted my last response to Jae and I'm going to avoid this thread until/unless it goes back on track.

 

[Jaebius]

sigh, so in a thread about the survey ...and results..... our membership falls into discussing vosper again arguing with Jae & Chansen.
and we wonder why folks get frustrated with WonderCafe...

Hi Pinga, I've been discussing things but not arguing. Mendalla and I are currently discussing a text from 1 Timothy. Care to contribute to the dialogue?

 

[Pinga]

Not about Gretta.
******************************

For the survey, I was interested in the Vancouver Sun's interpretation of the results. RichardBott did a great job of saying the reservations about the survey, yet....as there is no other survey, I wonder if it risks being misused and the results mirepresented.

thoughts?

 

[GO3838]

Well, I'm willing to get back on track.......
I've been reading this thread, and reflecting about a lot of things, but I haven't really contributed yet....

I think that one good thing about the survey is it must be a good morale boost to clergy.

With the United Church struggling to adapt to the needs of our changing world, I imagine some clergy must
also struggle with how to define the job in today's world. A survey like this must have been a good opportunity
to reflect on those things.

 

[GO3838]

Not about Gretta.
******************************

For the survey, I was interested in the Vancouver Sun's interpretation of the results. RichardBott did a great job of saying the reservations about the survey, yet....as there is no other survey, I wonder if it risks being misused and the results mirepresented.

thoughts?

Pinga, any survey on any topic risks being misinterpreted in commercial journalism that wants to sell papers rather than educate the public.
I'm not familiar with the Vancouver Sun, so I've no idea if it's a newspaper that's commmiteed to journalism excellence, or if it's a newspaper that
wants to make money from sensationalistic stories.

 

[Jaebius]

Well, I'm willing to get back on track.......
I've been reading this thread, and reflecting about a lot of things, but I haven't really contributed yet....

I think that one good thing about the survey is it must be a good morale boost to clergy.

With the United Church struggling to adapt to the needs of our changing world, I imagine some clergy must
also struggle with how to define the job in today's world. A survey like this must have been a good opportunity
to reflect on those things.

If the United Church is indeed struggling to adapt to the needs of our changing world, that's a truly great thing. That, however, is not the impression that I have from the outside. Rather, it seems the United Church I simply struggling to survive. As for the survey - props to Richard Bott for conducting it, and thank you to all the UCCanada leaders who participated in it. One thing it indicates is that Rev. Vosper was woefully in error when she made her "50%" comment.

 

[GO3838]

A media specialist who works for my union once told me that bad publicity is still good publicity.
(Basically the idea that any publicity is better than no publicity.)
I'm not sure I agree with his opinion.

I remember (more than a few years ago) when Bill Phipps was moderator, and he told media that he didn't believe in the Resurrection.
(Or at least, that's what the media reported. (You see, Pinga, that I'm switching up to someone else, and not mentioning GV?)

And I remember that the minister we had at the time called an "open table" evening, and any one from the church could come to a discussion evening
to discuss about what it meant to them to have a moderator who said he didn't believe in the Resurrection, a part of the New Creed.)

And I remember people sharing their thoughts: some were devastated, others were intrigued, and some felt he had been manipulated by the press.
Some thought that he should never have tried to explain complicated theological doctrine to a journalist who would not quote verbatim into a mainstream newspaper.

But I remember that the "open table" discussion had stimulated us and revitalized us, because we got to rethink our faith and share with each
other. Richard Bott's survey probably did that for some of the participants in the survey.