Strip Clubs

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Reading through the article posted, it seems that there are "guidelines" for being a victim. These include forcible confinement, no pay, no contact with family, etc....basically a "slave", BUT it seems that when we accept this we miss the grey areas that make it seem that some of these girls are making a conscious choice. They have their freedom, but they are paid with drugs. They have contact with their family but are under the threat of their employers informing their family of what they are actually doing for a living. Also, especially native women who seem to "choose" these "jobs" have come out of an abusive social welfare system and have no alternative. None of this is seen as being a victim.
Also the "victim" status applies mostly to immigrants being brought in from other countries. Native women are often seen as "criminals" rather than victims resulting from more than 100 years of being considered "squaws", the female equivalent of a male being regarded as a "savage".

It just seems to me that what we perceive to be "enjoyable" employment, may be smoke and mirrors in many cases whether one is native or not, although the native women are definitely more vulnerable in many circumstances.
 
Kimmio said:
Uh, Rev, nearly everyone here bases their opinions, and their posts, on their internal emotional reactions, including you with this post. One upsmanship and emotional remarks are the order of the day here - even with the odd stat thrown in. If you were not emotional you would not feel the need to point that post out. Yeah, I know it was an emotional post. No kidding. I'd have to be a zombie not to be emotional about this topic considering my experience. I also think there was some truth to that post - the post wasn't all about you but it was a response to you telling me not to give an opinion based on my experience because anecdotes don't count (but they they count if it's Pinga's friend as an example backing up stats on the other side of the stripping argument or Bette's daughter as an example of how girls don't have body esteem issues) - oh no those aren't emotional or anecdotally based remarks )and that I should back out - and also that people are not owning that they have emotional reactions all the time. Especially hot button topics. If noone did these discussions would read like a textbook. In interpersonal discussions experience counts. This is not the Ivy League debate club.
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Kimmio, emotions are a part of who and what we are and we all have emotional reactions. And I never told you that your emotional responses and experiences weren't valuable. I said that your opinion is an opinion and that there are other viewpoints that you simply refuse to acknowledge because you insist on taking any disagreement as a personal attack. This is yet another example. And of course there's emotion behind my thinking. I'm not a robot. But you can't simply dismiss all other viewpoints as wrong and treat them as personal attacks simply because they disagree with yours.
 
revsdd said:
Kimmio, emotions are a part of who and what we are and we all have emotional reactions. And I never told you that your emotional responses and experiences weren't valuable. I said that your opinion is an opinion and that there are other viewpoints that you simply refuse to acknowledge because you insist on taking any disagreement as a personal attack. This is yet another example. And of course there's emotion behind my thinking. I'm not a robot. But you can't simply dismiss all other viewpoints as wrong and treat them as personal attacks simply because they disagree with yours.
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Actually, I'd really like the employment and human rights policy links to be addressed by Pinga because they are law - law that is a good tool to objectively address the justness of strip clubs - regardless of mine or Pinga's emotional attachment to the issue on either side.

As far as I am concerned people on the other side of this argument here are also automatically dismissing my viewpoint as wrong with their own anecdotes and quips. You only posted stats on one side of the argument. Theirs. So, you did - even if inadvertently - lay down your position. And I realize it wasn't a personal attack but it did reflect a bias towards the others in this discussion who do exactly the same thing as you accuse me of. Perhaps with fewer words to wade through, but they still do it.
 
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Another thing...I am not going to change my opinion because Pinga says she once enjoyed a live sex show or because she says she and her stripper friend were 70s feminists, or because Bette's daughter has good self-esteem...because even if I am inclined to be more influenced by experiences than stats - the fact stands that people are exploited and hurt by that business even if it can be shown in a study that they are a minority, women do suffer painful body esteem issues that contribute to things like anorexia - and somebody has to speak out for that minority view - a minority of people being seriously damaged by the industry is even too many. I believe it harms people, women, on a larger collective scale in nuanced ways that are difficult to link directly. But human rights and employment laws at least attempt to remedy discriminatory employment practices. They recognize that the minority struggles for equality should not go by the wayside just because the majority disagrees with them or has to compromise on aspects of workplace culture by accommodating them. And they got recognized first by personal voices in the struggle - noone would have raised their voices for change without first having personal experiences and anecdotes that drive social change -that led to studies that led to laws and policies to address injustice.
 
Establishment trying to sell more booze needs more nudity to do it ... it has to be legalized so that the money can be controlled by the government ... if your live-at home 12 - 16 consenting years of age offspring decide to open up your rec-room and have strip shows with and for their friends and neighbors or passers-by and then also give away your booze to enhance the experience for the legal age of drinking guests and the home owners/parents express disaproval they have no legal recourse ... the morality enforcers will leave the parenting to you ... if on the other hand your children are making money doing the same ... stripping and charging money for the view and and selling your booze for slightly less than the strip club down the road ... then it becomes a matter for human rights law enforcement and government intervention and in that scenario parental responsibility becomes subject to the tax paying public outcry ... legally you can do anything you can monetarily afford to do ... or afford to get caught doing if it is something that has been criminalized ... and criminalized not because it is bad but because the government is not getting it's share of the money ... say for instance I grow hemp and make high quality hemp oil which I share with anyone who wants or needs it ... this is morally a good thing to do but I will probably end up being held accountable to the supreme court of the government and if I can not come up with enough money to defend myself there ... I will go to jail ... this is the money world we live in ... it is never about what is right or wrong or moral or immoral ... it is about money feeding money .... I can drive my truck perfectly as well with a license as not but if I get caught doing that I will be penalized monetarily ... all of the dope smokers in this forum if you do not have legal license to do so ... you will be penalized if caught ... you have to buy it from somewhere ... are you all sure that your sources are selling only to responsible people such as yourselves ... it just goes on an on and on ... the bottom line is that most of the problems that are discussed in this forum or any other could be so easily resolved if money was not the biggest part of the discipline of making a decent living. All are willing to discuss everything to no end in this forum ... except how money is always the biggest part of the problems. So ... I am moving on ... peace and goodwill to you all ... I know that deep down you are all anarchists and volunteerists at heart and once you get past the idea of 'money makes the world go round' ... who knows ... abundance and joy to the world !
 
UnDefinitive said:
Establishment trying to sell more booze needs more nudity to do it ... it has to be legalized so that the money can be controlled by the government ... if your live-at home 12 - 16 consenting years of age offspring decide to open up your rec-room and have strip shows with and for their friends and neighbors or passers-by and then also give away your booze to enhance the experience for the legal age of drinking guests and the home owners/parents express disaproval they have no legal recourse ... the morality enforcers will leave the parenting to you ... if on the other hand your children are making money doing the same ... stripping and charging money for the view and and selling your booze for slightly less than the strip club down the road ... then it becomes a matter for human rights law enforcement and government intervention and in that scenario parental responsibility becomes subject to the tax paying public outcry ... legally you can do anything you can monetarily afford to do ... or afford to get caught doing if it is something that has been criminalized ... and criminalized not because it is bad but because the government is not getting it's share of the money ... say for instance I grow hemp and make high quality hemp oil which I share with anyone who wants or needs it ... this is morally a good thing to do but I will probably end up being held accountable to the supreme court of the government and if I can not come up with enough money to defend myself there ... I will go to jail ... this is the money world we live in ... it is never about what is right or wrong or moral or immoral ... it is about money feeding money .... I can drive my truck perfectly as well with a license as not but if I get caught doing that I will be penalized monetarily ... all of the dope smokers in this forum if you do not have legal license to do so ... you will be penalized if caught ... you have to buy it from somewhere ... are you all sure that your sources are selling only to responsible people such as yourselves ... it just goes on an on and on ... the bottom line is that most of the problems that are discussed in this forum or any other could be so easily resolved if money was not the biggest part of the discipline of making a decent living. All are willing to discuss everything to no end in this forum ... except how money is always the biggest part of the problems. So ... I am moving on ... peace and goodwill to you all ... I know that deep down you are all anarchists and volunteerists at heart and once you get past the idea of 'money makes the world go round' ... who knows ... abundance and joy to the world !
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I don't really follow what you're saying here. But if you are disagreeing with having human rights laws - human rights employment laws in particular are often not enforced - notoriously have "no teeth". Human rights tribunals are backed up and cases are difficult to pursue. I haven't heard of anyone recently going to jail for a breach unless they are employing minors not of legal working age, or employing undocumented workers and underpaying them, maybe. And I don't even know about that. For criminal abuses like physical or sexual assault or forceable confinement those are criminal issues. What I do know is that most times the human rights employment breaches involve discriminatory hiring, job requirements, and firing practices - and the remedies most involve court orders to hire the rejected candidate, to reinstate their position with appropriate accommodation/ modification to the job, or to settle with a payment for back pay and lost wages. I don't see any injustice in those legal remedies if the process actually gets that far..
 
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They are designed to give equal access for all citizens to participate in society. If people practiced non-discrimination because they understood the importance of it we wouldn't need the laws.
 
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Kimmio said:
So, you did - even if inadvertently - lay down your position. And I realize it wasn't a personal attack but it did reflect a bias towards the others in this discussion who do exactly the same thing as you accuse me of. Perhaps with fewer words to wade through, but they still do it.
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Actually, Kimmio, overall I'm closer to your opinion than anyone else's. Generally speaking, I think sex work of any kind is exploitive and distasteful. But there are arguments both ways. And I have a socially libertarian streak that shies away from telling people what they should or should not be allowed to do as long as what they're doing isn't hurting anybody else and what they're doing is what they choose to do and no one else is forcing them into it.

I have one personal experience with a strip club. I was at a Conference Committee meeting at a small town outside Sudbury. After we broke for the day, a member of our Committee who was also the local United Church minister suggested to some of us that we go out for a beer. Three of us went with him. But he was fairly new in town and said he only knew of one place nearby. It was a bar attached to a motel. He said it looked fine. It did. Nothing out of the ordinary. It had a sign outside that said something like "Live Entertainment." Fine. So we went in. There were a handful of customers, a bartender/waitress with not much to do, and two young and bored looking women chatting on the side. My only thought at first was that they were dressed very strangely for the time of year. It was February, it was about -30 and they were in mini skirts, skimpy tops and high heels. Whatever. None of my business what people wear. We sat down, ordered and chatted about church work while the waitress looked at us strangely. All of a sudden, the only woman with us (who was facing the stage) put her hands over her eyes and said, "Oh my God. She's taking her clothes off." We three men spun around toward the stage and said, "Who? Where?" She was now sans clothing but still looking rather bored. No one there seemed to be paying much attention. We decided to finish our beers. We'd paid for them after all. I did, however, go to the lobby and call my wife, saying when she answered, "Hi honey. You're not going to believe where I am." That story made the rounds for quite a while in Manitou Conference.
 
By all means speak out and stick to your position, Kimmio. Be as passionate as you want. I admire your passion on the issue. Just allow others the same without seeing an attack behind every disagreement.
 
Ok. And I ask that others not make quips to avoid addressing my points. Because they are subtle attacks.

And, I really would like to discuss the human rights employment law aspect (because it is already policy that should apply to strip clubs as they are already considered by law to be legitimate places of employment) with people who've read my links.
 
Kimmio, being passionate about something is great . But to have that passion

turn to anger and being distraught and looking for a fight is not great.

I have seen this with you many times and respectfully ask if you have ever had anger management

classes. There is no need to answer if it is too personal.
 
With the way things were before these changes, I wonder if some events I have been involved with in the past would have been allowed.
I was pretty involved with a swing group for a while. There was rarely alcohol when we were hosting and not just using a bar to put on a social dance. When it was a bigger event though, we sometimes would. There would be performances, including burlesque although the primary event was social dancing.

It wasn't stripping naked, but that's still not allowed from what I've seen in Sask. I guess it would depend though what sort of leeway they have in place for art.
 
revsdd said:

Actually, Kimmio, overall I'm closer to your opinion than anyone else's. Generally speaking, I think sex work of any kind is exploitive and distasteful. But there are arguments both ways. And I have a socially libertarian streak that shies away from telling people what they should or should not be allowed to do as long as what they're doing isn't hurting anybody else and what they're doing is what they choose to do and no one else is forcing them into it.

I have one personal experience with a strip club. I was at a Conference Committee meeting at a small town outside Sudbury. After we broke for the day, a member of our Committee who was also the local United Church minister suggested to some of us that we go out for a beer. Three of us went with him. But he was fairly new in town and said he only knew of one place nearby. It was a bar attached to a motel. He said it looked fine. It did. Nothing out of the ordinary. It had a sign outside that said something like "Live Entertainment." Fine. So we went in. There were a handful of customers, a bartender/waitress with not much to do, and two young and bored looking women chatting on the side. My only thought at first was that they were dressed very strangely for the time of year. It was February, it was about -30 and they were in mini skirts, skimpy tops and high heels. Whatever. None of my business what people wear. We sat down, ordered and chatted about church work while the waitress looked at us strangely. All of a sudden, the only woman with us (who was facing the stage) put her hands over her eyes and said, "Oh my God. She's taking her clothes off." We three men spun around toward the stage and said, "Who? Where?" She was now sans clothing but still looking rather bored. No one there seemed to be paying much attention. We decided to finish our beers. We'd paid for them after all. I did, however, go to the lobby and call my wife, saying when she answered, "Hi honey. You're not going to believe where I am." That story made the rounds for quite a while in Manitou Conference.
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Wow - and here I thought Baptist conferences were exciting with our riveting keynote speakers.
 
Pinga said:
So, back to basics.....

what are the skills looked for for a stripper?
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Well I went looking and it, haha, this is the only specific description I could find:
http://dot-job-descriptions.careerplanner.com/STRIPPER.cfm

The job we're talking about is called "exotic dancer" and falls under the general heading of dancer, and funnily enough doesn't specify anything about taking one's clothes off:
http://www.mymajors.com/career/exotic-dancer/

But here is a job ad example:

http://1jobfind.com/jobs/exotic-dancer-dorchester/
 
Pinga said:
Here is a glorified way to become one: http://www.wikihow.com/Be-an-Exotic-Dancer

Then there is the question, are strippers adequately covered in workplace safety and policies, then are those policies enforced.
http://web2.uwindsor.ca/courses/soc...fs/exotic_dancing_in_ontario_final_report.pdf

So, skills:
a) the requirement to be able to turn on folks, but, also handle people who may be impaired. SImilair skills to a waiter at a bar.
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Do they teach this stuff at college or university? What courses would be involved? What degree would be earned?
 
Skills: dance (musical), gymnastics, barter/banter/sales, emotional IQ, seduction(?), drama, make-up/appearance, natural entertainer
Unless specialized show, atheleticism, team player, excellent self-esteem,
 
Pinga said:
Skills: dance (musical), gymnastics, barter/banter/sales, emotional IQ, seduction(?), drama, make-up/appearance, natural entertainer
Unless specialized show, atheleticism, team player, excellent self-esteem,
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Charisma, musicality, stage presence
 
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