Strip Clubs

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Well here are a few Saskatchewan and Regina/Saskatoon rules for liquors and strippers.

@ Pinga, The roofer stays home with me. He doesn't go to the strip clubs.
 
BetteTheRed said:

I wasn't throwing that out to talk about fortune. Many things in my daughter's life have been unfortunate. I brought it up to point out that if women have body issues, etc., we'd probably do better looking at our parenting than worrying about the bylaws that allow strip clubs.
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What an emotional post. And why didn't you say that instead of pointing out that it must be because you are such a great parent - how anecdotal.(how does it feel? Not very nice is it?)
 
Kimmio said:
@Pinga here's blog that discusses Ontario human rights in the workplace. It's pretty clear that exotic dancing/ stripping establishments are discriminatory by nature. I suppose if people really understood what equality looks like, and what discrimination looks like and didn't do it we wouldn't need such laws but that's not the case. They are hard to enforce but they do exist for good reason.

http://maytree.com/blog/2012/07/human-rights-in-the-ontario-workplace-what-you-need-to-know/
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@Pinga could you address this?
 
Thanks CH. Useful information.

So back to my other question, why wasn't there a vote if there was such a mixed bag of opinions?
 
Kimmio - it does seem from your posts above that you are looking for argument today.
 
Kimmio, the amount of tangents you throw is just not something that works for me in conversations with you. If you would like to discuss the essential element of stripping, which is what offends you regarding it , then I may be able to find time to continue the conversation tomorrow night. If you wish to keep tagging me on a myriad of issues, then, we can work through them one at a time, and I will just consider them an itemized list..which we can prioritize.
 
Carolla said:
Kimmio - it does seem from your posts above that you are looking for argument today.
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Just responding to the comments made to me, Carolla, and pointing out that others do exactly what I have been accused of. And trying to actually get Pinga to address the policy problems I pointed out re:human rights in the workplace.
 
Pinga said:
Kimmio, the amount of tangents you throw is just not something that works for me in conversations with you. If you would like to discuss the essential element of stripping, which is what offends you regarding it , then I may be able to find time to continue the conversation tomorrow night. If you wish to keep tagging me on a myriad of issues, then, we can work through them one at a time, and I will just consider them an itemized list..which we can prioritize.
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What offends me about it besides my 'anecdotes'? For starters i think it is discriminatory and perpetuates discrimination as per human rights employment laws and policies. Let's start there (and maybe someday my 'anecdotes' and tangents will make sense. Someone once said "the personal is political").
 
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revsdd said:
Kimmio, you've proven my point with these words. I didn't cite stats to prove you wrong. I even acknowledged that you're right to question the study I cited. Everything should be taken with a grain of salt. I cited stats to point out that there's a different perspective than yours - one that's supported by solid, doctoral-level research. You said you could cite studies showing the opposite. Do it. I'd welcome that. I'm not saying that one study that I've found proves anything. So contribute to the discussion something more than just personal anecdotes. I suppose I'm pointing out as well that policy needs to be based on solid research and not emotional reactions or anecdotal evidence or personal experience. But what you said above that I quoted again demonstrates that it's not possible to have a reasoned discussion with you on this issue. We either agree with you or you take our disagreement personally as if it's an attack. There's no basis for conversation with you on this.
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I could go Googling for an opposing study and spend my day debating that - but actually, since I brought up employment and human rights laws that protect workers from discrimination - that would be a futile exercise. Because even if the study you posted is right, and most sex workers enjoy their work (which I seriously question) it doesn't matter because human rights law doesn't protect workplace culture or job satisfaction of the majority - it focuses on making sure that the minority experience is protected and not exploited or disregarded, in the workplace - that those who are disadvantaged by the majority culture and policies of the workplace get a level playing field. Let's start there.
 
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This is all going back to the same conversation we had about brothels and legalizing prostitution.

We have a market for a product. Women who are willing to undress while dancing in public. (There really isn't much of a market for men doing the same thing; I'm not sure there's more than a handful of male strippers who can make a living doing it, although I admit to finding them wildly amusing and used to occasionally attend with a gaggle of girlfriends.)

We have people willing to supply that market.

If that marketplace is kept as out in the open as possible, and regulated like any other job (and Kimmio, you try to get a job in retail looking like me, it ain't gonna happen and it's not discrimination), then it will be a lot more free of peril to the employees than it would if it were FORCED underground. Underground is pretty well always a bad place; it's what makes illicit drug addiction so dangerous.

Unless we want to get into a "lion lies down with the lamb" conversation, in which case my earlier comment about my daughter was somewhat instructive, because it indicated that there exist genuine counter-cultural attempts to re-define beauty, utility and gender.

And I have absolutely no problem with individual emotion, work hard to figure out the million different ones of them that course through my poor beleaguered being. I simply think that public policy should be based on a logical analysis of the Common Good, with parameters and benchmarks based on measurable outcomes, the sort which can be shared in peer-reviewed journals.
 
If the whole article I posted is too long, just skip down to section III....trafficking in the prairie provinces.
 
BetteTheRed said:
This is all going back to the same conversation we had about brothels and legalizing prostitution.

We have a market for a product. Women who are willing to undress while dancing in public. (There really isn't much of a market for men doing the same thing; I'm not sure there's more than a handful of male strippers who can make a living doing it, although I admit to finding them wildly amusing and used to occasionally attend with a gaggle of girlfriends.)

We have people willing to supply that market.

If that marketplace is kept as out in the open as possible, and regulated like any other job (and Kimmio, you try to get a job in retail looking like me, it ain't gonna happen and it's not discrimination), then it will be a lot more free of peril to the employees than it would if it were FORCED underground. Underground is pretty well always a bad place; it's what makes illicit drug addiction so dangerous.

Unless we want to get into a "lion lies down with the lamb" conversation, in which case my earlier comment about my daughter was somewhat instructive, because it indicated that there exist genuine counter-cultural attempts to re-define beauty, utility and gender.

And I have absolutely no problem with individual emotion, work hard to figure out the million different ones of them that course through my poor beleaguered being. I simply think that public policy should be based on a logical analysis of the Common Good, with parameters and benchmarks based on measurable outcomes, the sort which can be shared in peer-reviewed journals.
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If you have ability to do retail (can provide good customer service and can operate a cash register and can count change - with or without an assistive device or other reasonable accommodation) it is actually discrimination - that they get away with it doesn't mean it isn't. Why do you think it isn't? Have you read the laws about it? I worked in this area and advocated for many middle aged people with disabilities to be hired in retail. Unfortunately, they often had even higher skills - but they got jobs in retail. Part of the issue I had with the agency.
 
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crazyheart said:
@Waterfall, why it was not a separate vote is something I don't know. Maybe there were not enough people who opposed it
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Probably because it's not about the stripping, it's about the alcohol. It sounds like all the changes were made about where, when and how alcohol could be served.
When stripping is already allowed, is it a big deal to allow people to drink there too?
 
Waterfall said:
I wonder if even more native women will become vulnerable to discrimination? Already they don't have the best police protection in place and will this become a serious option to counter poverty for them in your province?

http://iog.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/May-2009_trafficking_of_aboriginal_women-1.pdf
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How does allowing people to drink at the venue make them more vulnerable? I'm not disagreeing there is that potential, but I would like to hear your reasoning.
 
BetteTheRed said:
This is all going back to the same conversation we had about brothels and legalizing prostitution.

We have a market for a product. Women who are willing to undress while dancing in public. (There really isn't much of a market for men doing the same thing; I'm not sure there's more than a handful of male strippers who can make a living doing it, although I admit to finding them wildly amusing and used to occasionally attend with a gaggle of girlfriends.)

We have people willing to supply that market.

If that marketplace is kept as out in the open as possible, and regulated like any other job (and Kimmio, you try to get a job in retail looking like me, it ain't gonna happen and it's not discrimination), then it will be a lot more free of peril to the employees than it would if it were FORCED underground. Underground is pretty well always a bad place; it's what makes illicit drug addiction so dangerous.

Unless we want to get into a "lion lies down with the lamb" conversation, in which case my earlier comment about my daughter was somewhat instructive, because it indicated that there exist genuine counter-cultural attempts to re-define beauty, utility and gender.

And I have absolutely no problem with individual emotion, work hard to figure out the million different ones of them that course through my poor beleaguered being. I simply think that public policy should be based on a logical analysis of the Common Good, with parameters and benchmarks based on measurable outcomes, the sort which can be shared in peer-reviewed journals.
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And human rights policies in the workplace are based on a logical analysis of the common good with parameters and benchmarks based on measurable outcomes and they are already established in our society for good reason. Everyone should get to know them. It would actually be an excellent tool to clear up this debate, because it's already law.
 
ChemGal said:
How does allowing people to drink at the venue make them more vulnerable? I'm not disagreeing there is that potential, but I would like to hear your reasoning.
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Well it is my understanding that strip clubs without alcohol weren't attracting many customers, therefore not a great source of revenue.
 
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