Snoopy's Spinoff Thread: The Lord's Prayer (VU 921)

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paradox3

paradox3

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The traditional version of the Lord's Prayer can be found at VU 921. It is 12 lines long and I plan to consider one line at a time.

There is another thread which looks at Jesus teaching us to pray. (Matthew 6 and Luke 11) The discussion there has spun off into the versions of the prayer used by different denominations. And some debate about the rosary.

Back to the prayer.
 
Here we see traditional masculine language for God. I am not bothered by it because I believe these are the authentic words of Jesus. It speaks to a very personal relationship with God, I think. So it sits okay with me.

What about God being located in Heaven? In Genesis when God created the heavens it sounded like the author meant the skies. Did Jesus believe his Father resided in the sky? Or was he referring to another dimension outside of space and time?

Would Jesus have included an afterlife in his view of heaven?
 
paradox3 said:
Or was he referring to another dimension outside of space and time?
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The concept of dimensions beyond the usual three is very new (I don't think it shows up in Euclid, for instance) so likely he was thinking "up in the sky" or some variant thereof. Even time as a "dimension" comparable to the three of space is pretty modern, possibly beginning with Einstein. That's certainly where the idea of space-time originates. :nerd:

That said, he might mean more "out there, somewhere" than simply up in the sky. Beyond our senses and knowledge, if you like. The idea that deities were "out there, somewhere" fits with a 1st century intellect while still not being a literal "up there". And can then be interpreted in modern Einsteinian terms as "other dimensions". :giggle:
 
paradox3 said:
Here we see traditional masculine language for God. I am not bothered by it because I believe these are the authentic words of Jesus. It speaks to a very personal relationship with God, I think. So it sits okay with me.

What about God being located in Heaven? In Genesis when God created the heavens it sounded like the author meant the skies. Did Jesus believe his Father resided in the sky? Or was he referring to another dimension outside of space and time?

Would Jesus have included an afterlife in his view of heaven?
Click to expand...
Biblica cosmology seems to suggest a three tiered universe. The Underworld, the World and the HEavens above the dome of the sky. So yes 'up there' but not the sky per se.

IIRC the idea of an afterlife, like the idea of resurrection, had mixed acceptance in 1st Century Judaism. So maybe?
 
I haven't said those words in 20 years or more in church circles.
I could say "creator" instead of "father" and the rhythm is the same, most don't notice.

I also don't believe in a "heaven" concept, so had to think poetry when saying it and the importance of community prayers.

Now, I either just stand with my mouth shut, or mainly, just don't attend.

The insistence of having a male imagery for God, and a father image at that, was just too much, especially if the congregation chose to say it all the time, and rarely offer other types.

so, yeah, "our father who art in heaven" -- nope.
 
Further, "creating godde, in whom is heaven". I cannot imagine where godde is not, if godde is everything. And the kin-dom is here among us already, waiting for us to realize it, so where is heaven except here?
 
God calls itself " I Am" in Exodus and also Yahweh.
Yahweh is a combination of masculine and feminine.
Yah is feminine and weh is masculine.
Strange that it's not used all the time...although the Jewish thought the name shouldn't be spoken because it was sacred (or hallowed)... or was that just a reason that gave more power to the male gender?
 
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paradox3 said:
Did anyone ever know this opening line as "Our Father which art in heaven"?
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I have seen that but don't recall saying it much. "Who" makes Good more personal I think.

For the "Father" I think any substitute still needs the parental aspect. "Creator" is a bit too impersonal. It implies creation but not ongoing relationship like we have with a parent. Not sure what that parental term should be, though. "Father/Mother" and "Parent" are both awkward phrasings in English.

I am not too fussed about the "heaven" part. Bette's rephrasing would work for a panentheist or pantheist understanding of God. My "out there somewhere" understanding of "in Heaven" works for a transcendent deity while removing the "up in the sky" literalism.
 
The opening word is "Our" and the prayer has been translated using the first person plural. Interesting twist on a prayer that Jesus gave us after instructions to pray privately. Maybe he meant for us to pray privately but keep in mind we are part of a people. I think Jesus might be surprised by how corporate the prayer has become.
 
paradox3 said:
I think Jesus might be surprised by how corporate the prayer has become.
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He would be surprised by a lot of things that modern Christians say and do, but this one for sure. And agree about "Our" signifying the person praying being one of God's children rather than being specifically designed for corporate prayer, even if it works well for that as well
 
Line 2: Hallowed be thy name.

Hallowed is a great old word. I have always heard it pronounced in the prayer as: Hall-ow-ed (3 syllables).

It carries the meaning of holy but more than that, I think. It implies consecrating or declaring something to be holy. Or perhaps valuing it as Holy.

Is this simply a declaration that God is Holy? Or is it a petition for the world to recognize God as Holy?
 
So Oxford online gives the meanings of the verb form of "hallowed" (yes, I have heard it said and said it that way, too) as "to honour as holy" or "to make holy". Since I don't think mere mortals can make God holy, I guess it is the former. So "thy holy name be honoured" or something like that.
 
God being holy seems more logical than God's name being holy. Such a lot of power in a name!
 
I don't know, many people protect their name from being slandered and defiled in order to be respected in communities. Even businesses rely on their name as reference.
 
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