Should Unbelievers Say the Apostle's Creed And The Nicene Creed In Their Worship Services ?

[Mendalla]

A more cynical view of the early councils is that one side had more votes than the other

Which is really the problem here. I am sure the councils claimed the "Spirit was moving them" but reality is that it was a vote no different from a vote in a Parliament. The side with the most support won no matter whether the other side was well-supported or not.

 

[Jaebius]

But wouldn't the heretics argue they are doing this, too? Why give the established, institutional church a monopoly on understanding Scripture when it is inherently a subjective exercise? Churches are welcome to not allow heretics in their ranks but in this day and age, the heretics' viewpoint is as valid in a broader discussion (e.g. here) as the churches' and there is no such thing as heresy being a crime as it was in some past eras.

That's a good point, Mendalla, I suppose they can and even do argue that. They do so in error imho, but then I'm part of the Church.

Freedom to speak and a claim's validity are different things. A heretic has every right to argue their position. The Church has every right to say that position's false and contrary to Scripture.

For me, the goal's simply to pursue God's truth with humility, recognizing that both people and people groups can err, while still holding that some interpretations are closer to what Scripture teaches than others

 

[unsafe]

So what is Heresy in Bible terms

Strong Concordance

Lexical Summary
hairesis: Sect, faction, heresy , a choice, i.e. (specially) a party or (abstractly) disunion -- "personally select, choose") – properly, a personal (decisive) choice.

1. (properly) a choice
2. (by extension) a preference
3. (specially) a (religious) party, a sect, a denomination
4. (abstractly) disunion

Summary

Hairesis reminds the church that choice matters.

Choosing Christ unites; choosing self-made doctrine divides.

The same term that once described competing schools now warns of any teaching that rebels against apostolic truth.

Fidelity to Scripture preserves both the purity of the gospel and the harmony of God’s people.


Bible Hub
Heresy

Historical Context
Throughout Church history, heresies have arisen that challenged core Christian doctrines.

The early Church Fathers, such as Irenaeus and Athanasius, wrote extensively against heretical teachings like Gnosticism and Arianism, which denied the divinity of Christ.

The ecumenical councils, such as the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, were convened to address these heresies and to affirm orthodox Christian beliefs.

Theological Implications
Heresy is considered a grave sin because it distorts the truth of the Gospel and can lead believers astray.

In 1 Timothy 4:1 , Paul warns, "Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons."

Heresy undermines the unity of the Church and the integrity of its witness to the world.


I say ----Titus 3 warns us about Controversies -arguments and quarrels

9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.

10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them.

11 You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.

​

 

[Luce NDs]

So what is Heresy in Bible terms

Strong Concordance

Lexical Summary
hairesis: Sect, faction, heresy , a choice, i.e. (specially) a party or (abstractly) disunion -- "personally select, choose") – properly, a personal (decisive) choice.

1. (properly) a choice
2. (by extension) a preference
3. (specially) a (religious) party, a sect, a denomination
4. (abstractly) disunion

Summary

Hairesis reminds the church that choice matters.

Choosing Christ unites; choosing self-made doctrine divides.

The same term that once described competing schools now warns of any teaching that rebels against apostolic truth.

Fidelity to Scripture preserves both the purity of the gospel and the harmony of God’s people.


Bible Hub
Heresy

Historical Context
Throughout Church history, heresies have arisen that challenged core Christian doctrines.

The early Church Fathers, such as Irenaeus and Athanasius, wrote extensively against heretical teachings like Gnosticism and Arianism, which denied the divinity of Christ.

The ecumenical councils, such as the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, were convened to address these heresies and to affirm orthodox Christian beliefs.

Theological Implications
Heresy is considered a grave sin because it distorts the truth of the Gospel and can lead believers astray.

In 1 Timothy 4:1 , Paul warns, "Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons."

Heresy undermines the unity of the Church and the integrity of its witness to the world.


I say ----Titus 3 warns us about Controversies -arguments and quarrels

9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.

10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them.

11 You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.

​

Face it as something different that a person of the establishment cannot accept even if included in the infinite definition that is impossibly unending ... as if de established or unwoven, deconstructed! Works for analysis ... like a breakdown when fiddling ... like demons on the thing called GEO Ghia?

Few get curious without something to question ... while some delude themselves ... believing to know things far beyond ... just out there ...

 

[Luce NDs]

Why can't some people accept they don't know everything ?

Authoritarian tyrants ... stimulating ... they are rampant in history they never experienced in their moments ... it is just how it is or how it goes ...

 

[Luce NDs]

I can write on and on about things people say they don't understand and then claim they know God ... an ancient word for all inclusive when it is scattered ... in accrued nature ... this insults tyrants mentality as unknown's are inserted or projected ...

Even Psyche scientist will say don't project when we are required to to internalize a sensation ... especially with hard-shell that tend so be slow ... turtling will upset it mentally ...

 

[Luce NDs]

Is time to get it together beyond our understanding? That's aula ... vite!

Most never acknowledge ... skimming! Pha 'd rises ...

 

[Jaebius]

When considering the number of efforts to manipulate our minds by powers of leaders, business and BS ... how hard is it to find actual virtue in all these layers of obscurity? It is so bad I see it is even difficult to determine in what I previously was told was normal ... when the world appears to me to be a bit off by the overwhelming drive to misinform the populace. There is so much dirt and mire out there it is like Sirocco or some other metaphor for a dirt storm ...

Even the boogie horses have mixed relations with bulls ... according to the news ... boogie is a behind thing ...

When I'm buried under all the dust and confusion, Luce, I focus on what's actually solid. Virtue's found in Christ. God's character doesn't shift with the wind.

That means we should be humble about our own conclusions. Test what we hear! REMEMBER THAT NO EARTHLY POWER'S ULTIMATE! Storms don't last forever. God sees through the haze even when we can't.

As for the strange stories and headlines these days, the news cycle's its own parody

 

[Luce NDs]

When I'm buried under all the dust and confusion, Luce, I focus on what's actually solid. Virtue's found in Christ. God's character doesn't shift with the wind.

That means we should be humble about our own conclusions. Test what we hear! REMEMBER THAT NO EARTHLY POWER'S ULTIMATE! Storms don't last forever. God sees through the haze even when we can't.

As for the strange stories and headlines these days, the news cycle's its own parody

You still haven't explained what you understand by Jesus! This item remains a fuzzy ID!

 

[Jaebius]

You still haven't explained what you understand by Jesus! This item remains a fuzzy ID!

Jesus, Luce, can't be fully grasped merely by defining Him intellectually. He must be known personally through faith.

He's my only hope before God. The One whose grace continues to shape my life every day!

Who's Jesus to you?

 

[chansen]

I'd like to think it's me, but Luce can confirm.

 

[GordW]

Which is really the problem here. I am sure the councils claimed the "Spirit was moving them" but reality is that it was a vote no different from a vote in a Parliament. The side with the most support won no matter whether the other side was well-supported or not.

Aggravated by an Imperial need to create/enforce uniformity on a church which had been diverse from the beginning. And ever since the church has assumed a need for uniformity on some matters. Which may well be why most reformers in history talk about wanting to take things back to the )so-called) consensus of the first 5 centuries.

 

[Luce NDs]

When I'm buried under all the dust and confusion, Luce, I focus on what's actually solid. Virtue's found in Christ. God's character doesn't shift with the wind.

That means we should be humble about our own conclusions. Test what we hear! REMEMBER THAT NO EARTHLY POWER'S ULTIMATE! Storms don't last forever. God sees through the haze even when we can't.

As for the strange stories and headlines these days, the news cycle's its own parody

AND ... there is always something hidden in the news that we should know but manipulators use this in their hypocrisy about ideals ... what they put on pedestals while knocking them over in the background for profit ... thus something becomes inflated! Guess what ...

There are 2 things that I know: 1 the little bit that I know and 2 the challenge of what is beyond us given the confidence level of some folk over what they don't know can be utilized to instill fear in the alternate ... thus Dennison of the deep challenges ...

One should know the demon that wishes to cannibalize your intelligence! Often enough this means we should challenge authority as tyrants suffering from Peter Principle ... the process is a Pal Line ... may appear like O|O or inverted as Gods buried side |O| as nothing in a containment .. we are hopeless in our claim of understanding God and animal magnetism! Thus we are left with the process theology ... it must be mulled over and digested so that we could decide what to do with it ... it seems sharing and balance will assist us in getting through life and back into where we come from ... a mystery as indicated by "X" and then the OXO is produced as we prepare the bull ... that power is extensive ... people that approach the fringe need to stand up to it ... for there is a lot of bull out there to be studied ... giving one a sense of humility with the intuition that we are just a tiny piece of the mystery ... and some of the proud try and use it to Master the support system in destructive means because of what they don't know ... thus the search for virtue of seekers of the mysterious light ... it is darker for sake of obscurity of investigative cults ...

I'm sorry is this too much for you to simplify and render down into a myth that stirs curiosity about the great unknown? A mass couldn't care less about what they don't know as long as they can extract ... but among them this strange spark needing initiation ... a lightening so it can rise against what isn't grasped just yet. Authorities will tell you they know ... when you may know better if asked ... and then there are those refusing questions in either vector ... indicates to me that there always is a sense of delinquent ... or something missing in mortal ... mystical movements! Like a breeze ...

 

[Luce NDs]

Aggravated by an Imperial need to create/enforce uniformity on a church which had been diverse from the beginning. And ever since the church has assumed a need for uniformity on some matters. Which may well be why most reformers in history talk about wanting to take things back to the )so-called) consensus of the first 5 centuries.

In reality we are told you cannot go back but then there is that abstract quality that is beyond reality and very poorly understood as most fear it and would put it down as demonised intellect ... that dark shadow in the mind? It resides in the mystical garden so myths can evolve into something that goes on ... phantom of a pilgrim? This I recall from time to time ... like ancient Sophia a buried pool as symbolic ...

 

[Luce NDs]

Jesus, Luce, can't be fully grasped merely by defining Him intellectually. He must be known personally through faith.

He's my only hope before God. The One whose grace continues to shape my life every day!

Who's Jesus to you?

But you present it like it is solid, when it seems to move and learn as it goes on step by step ... the ET'ic thing which is obscure in moral presentation that needs to adjust to the situation as when ... wealthy people are encouraged in their avarice until they destroy as they wish ... quite feely.

Do strange process observe this from odd position as in and out consequently ... on a sequence as we cannot take too much at once ... the need for patience ... to wait on the next step and sustain what light you've received? Enigmatic in physical reality ... then aren't real people like that when the essence of what's out there looks into them ... the search appears 2 sided ... again like O|O a thin line supposed by two nihilists giving up essential matter for a new temple, refreshed mine ... in great depths ...

 

[Luce NDs]

I'd like to think it's me, but Luce can confirm.

Observing things from outside there is this complexity of extensive black and white icons that many claim to understand when they don't even read into it ... I find the myth of knowing is extensive and supports inflationary knowledge that much of is false ... so much fluff to amuse the 2 that started the charade ... a kind of Sundance? Like a filed of something blossoming ... needing consumption ... that resembles communion and connection as a line that was lost for fear! That line into the darker side? Moe in ... a wide ayre ... that wraps something up ...

Accept it as an outside opinion given my exclusion from the core agenda by the powers desiring physical wealth on which I varied ...

I've learned a great deal they didn't want me too ... but it appears as just initiation into mores ... Moiré's Code? Product of a mean Scot ... tight air bag?

If down you have to hold your breath ... even that'll bring you close to an end ... temporal Black Out ... rest in peace?

The dead needed a place too where no one would disturb them thus the unseen ... clear?

 

[Luce NDs]

The line of myth is long because it is really fuzzy and spun out ...

 

[Luce NDs]

Where best to store information, intelligence and wisdom than in an intangible fortress (Borge?) that supplies support ... an item stored away in unknow space ... for offering and receiving as necessary?

Would such a storage place be like a mental treasure that those addicted to physical wealth would despise? Thus it remains beyond mortal comprehension ... like and idealism that is out there ... clearly a clouded solution?

This causes me to return to the market place that used to be stocked with sales and service and to save the cost of labor (vocation) service is disposed of and the market collapses from inadequate care ... allowing scads to return to the great unknown ... a shadowy place ... a down Eire? Thus closed freedoms ... at a spot that's dark and all are closely connected there as in a magical neuron that is all over the place at any given time ... a very large ethereal particle?

Storm in an enormous psyche with falling water to flush the medium ... like an arid reaction ... English Humor in a spin?

To tell the truth I just don't know but a little bit and yet some will tell you they know the infinite and infinitesimal ... unsettling to the heavens? As they spin do they open a spot in the midst where fools rush in ... as love demands without common sense? Complexity expands with the entrance of a gross conception ... that may be in Eire ... a mental singularity ... in which everything is for sale and of little service to the common John ... Maybe a Jinn, or Jim as opposed ... literary device to assist describe what in non definable ... uncertainty personified in a great stir ... place of a future collapse once exhausted ... product? Possibly a nihil giving rise to a nihilist ... two differing nothings? There a mystery particle and a disruptive particle like a boson ... abstract on both ends? Creative of duality ... |O| when 2 lines cross ... Hebrew X from the desert when two floods come together ...

Brewed on high!

 

[unsafe]

so-called) consensus of the first 5 centuries.

Is this what your Speaking of there GordW

AI Says this

The "consensus of the first five centuries" (often called the consensus quinquesaecularis)
is a historical and theological concept arguing that Christian doctrines agreed upon during the first 500 years of Church history represent authentic, foundational Christianity.

Origins and Definition

George Calixtus. A 17th-century German Lutheran theologian named George Calixtus coined and championed this idea to help heal divisions between Catholic, Lutheran, and Reformed Christians.

The Vincentian Canon. The concept builds on a famous fifth-century rule by St. Vincent of Lérins, who stated that true Christian teaching is what has been believed "everywhere, always, and by all."


The Cut-Off Point. Proponents chose the end of the fifth century (around 451–500 AD) because it included the first four Ecumenical Councils and the major Church Fathers, while stopping before later medieval developments that divided Eastern and Western churches.


Why It Is Called "So-Called"

Internal Debates. Critics point out that the first five centuries were marked by intense theological conflict rather than smooth agreement, such as the Arian, Nestorian, and Pelagian controversies.

Incomplete Canon. The exact list of New Testament books was still being debated in different regions well into the fourth and fifth centuries.

Arbitrary Boundary. Many historians and theologians argue that picking the year 500 AD is artificial, as doctrinal development did not simply stop at that date.

Lack of Unanimity. Because large groups of Christians were declared heretical and excluded during this era, critics argue the resulting "consensus" reflects the winning side of church politics rather than true universal agreement.


The Ecumenical Councils included in those first five centuries

The first four Ecumenical Councils took place during the first five centuries of Church history, spanning from 325 AD to 451 AD. Together, these assemblies defined core Christian doctrines regarding the Trinity and the nature of Jesus Christ.

Why These Four Are Central

Broad Acceptance. Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and most mainline Protestant traditions accept the doctrinal definitions of these four councils as authoritative.

The "Four Gospels" Parallel. In the sixth century, Pope Gregory the Great famously stated that he revered these four councils just as he revered the four Gospels, cementing their foundational status.

Major Schisms. Despite their unifying intent, the third and fourth councils led to permanent splits, resulting in the Church of the East (after Ephesus) and the Oriental Orthodox Churches (after Chalcedon) separating from the imperial Roman church.


Overview of the First Four Councils

Council	Year	Location	Key Issue & Outcome
First Council of Nicaea	325 AD	Nicaea (modern Iznik, Turkey)	Condemned Arianism and affirmed that Jesus is fully divine and "of one substance" (homoousios) with God the Father. Produced the original Nicene Creed.
First Council of Constantinople	381 AD	Constantinople (modern Istanbul, Turkey)	Reaffirmed Nicaea and defined the full divinity of the Holy Spirit. Expanded the text into the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed used today.
Council of Ephesus	431 AD	Ephesus (near modern Selçuk, Turkey)	Condemned Nestorianism and affirmed that Jesus is a single unified person, giving Mary the title Theotokos ("God-bearer").
Council of Chalcedon	451 AD	Chalcedon (modern Kadıköy, Turkey)	Condemned Monophysitism and declared that Jesus has two complete natures (divine and human) united in one person without confusion or division.

 

[chansen]

As an aside, we're providing a free platform for some unnamed Christian AI engine that unsafe has refused to identify. I don't understand how everyone else seems okay with this.

Carry on.