GordW
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You are missing my point. My point is that those controversies show ho much divergence there was in understanding who Jesus was/is
Should Unbelievers Say the Apostle's Creed And The Nicene Creed In Their Worship Services ?
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Waterfalls
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I wonder why Jesus was so hard on the Pharisees, because they seem to have believed in a similar list....minus the Jesus as Messiah story?Here is the Apostle's Creed with Scripture attached
August 8, 2022
Where Is the Apostles’ Creed Found in the Bible? - Bible Gateway Blog
Here is a list of Bible passages where each element of the Apostles’ Creed, the brief summary of the teachings of Jesus' followers, is found.www.biblegateway.com
Where Is the Apostles’ Creed Found in the Bible?
Jonathan Petersen
- I believe (John 3)
in God, the Father (Psalm 103)
almighty (Psalm 89)
creator of heaven and earth. (Genesis 1)
I believe in Jesus Christ, (Colossians 1)
his only Son, (John 1)
our Lord, (Romans 14)
who was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit (Luke 1)
born of the virgin Mary (Isaiah 7)
suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, (Isaiah 53)
died, and was buried; (Matthew 27)
On the third day he rose again, (Luke 24)
he ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of the Father (Hebrews 9)
and will come again (Mark 13)
to judge the living and the dead. (Revelation 20)
I believe in the Holy Spirit, (Acts 2)
the holy universal church, (1 Peter 1)
the communion of saints, (Ephesians 2)
the forgiveness of sins, (Jeremiah 31)
the resurrection of the body, (Daniel 12)
and the life everlasting. Amen. (Revelation 21)
GordW
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MAybe because they were so closely aligned? Sometimes our fiercest fights are with those closest to us.
unsafe
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Jaebius
The Arianism -Debate ------was that Jesus was a created being and not equal to God the Father ----
According to this ------It was condemned at the Council of Nicaea (325 AD), which affirmed that Jesus is "of the same substance" (homoousios) as the Father.
The Nestorianism Debate --was about how Jesus divine and human Nature coexisted ---it said that Jesus was 2 distinct persons ----not one person with 2 natures -----
According to this ----It was condemned at the Council of Ephesus (431 AD).
The Filioque Debate -----the origin of the Holy Spirit -----
From Wikipeda
Filioque is a Latin phrase meaning "and the Son" (from filius, meaning "son," and -que, a Latin enclitic conjunction meaning "and"
Western Church added this phrase to the Nicene Creed to state that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.
The Eastern Church strongly rejected this, arguing that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone.
I say -----Scripture confirms that -----The Father is sending the Holy Spirit -----Not the Father and the Son -----
John 14:26
“But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.”
John 15:26
When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me." (ESV
From Bible Hub
Triadic Structure Underscoring the Trinity
1. “The Father” — sender and source
2. “The Holy Spirit” — personal agent sent
3. “In My [Jesus’] name” — authority and sphere of mission
Three distinct referents cooperate in a single redemptive action. The verse thus offers a snapshot of one God in three persons:
the Father commissioning,
the Son authorizing,
the Spirit acting.
The Arianism -Debate ------was that Jesus was a created being and not equal to God the Father ----
According to this ------It was condemned at the Council of Nicaea (325 AD), which affirmed that Jesus is "of the same substance" (homoousios) as the Father.
The Nestorianism Debate --was about how Jesus divine and human Nature coexisted ---it said that Jesus was 2 distinct persons ----not one person with 2 natures -----
According to this ----It was condemned at the Council of Ephesus (431 AD).
The Filioque Debate -----the origin of the Holy Spirit -----
From Wikipeda
Filioque is a Latin phrase meaning "and the Son" (from filius, meaning "son," and -que, a Latin enclitic conjunction meaning "and"
Western Church added this phrase to the Nicene Creed to state that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.
The Eastern Church strongly rejected this, arguing that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone.
I say -----Scripture confirms that -----The Father is sending the Holy Spirit -----Not the Father and the Son -----
John 14:26
“But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.”
John 15:26
When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me." (ESV
From Bible Hub
Triadic Structure Underscoring the Trinity
1. “The Father” — sender and source
2. “The Holy Spirit” — personal agent sent
3. “In My [Jesus’] name” — authority and sphere of mission
Three distinct referents cooperate in a single redemptive action. The verse thus offers a snapshot of one God in three persons:
the Father commissioning,
the Son authorizing,
the Spirit acting.
unsafe
Well-Known Member
The Pharisees Waterfall were very prideful ----They thought they were the Elite Class --they knew very well the Scriptures and could quote them but they had no Spiritual understanding of them ---and they made up their own rules about the Law -and added to God's law ----they neglected the poor ---and other important matters -----
Matthew 23:23 NIV
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
Jaebius
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The key issue, Waterfalls, is not merely BELIEVING THE DOCTRINE EXISTS!
Pharisees affirmed resurrection as a concept while still rejecting Christ.
What changed for Paul was that God opened his eyes to see that Jesus IS the risen Messiah.
The Pharisees already had the category for resurrection. They just didn't believe it'd happened in Christ. That's why Paul could say he was worshipping his fathers' God while also preaching Jesus
Jaebius
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Counterfeit's existence, Gord, doesn't prove there was no authentic belief.
In many ways, it shows how seriously the church took getting Christ right
Jaebius
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The Holy Spirit, unsafe, comes to glorify Christ. Draw sinners to God. Comfort believers! BEAR WITNESS TO THE TRUTH!
On that point, Eastern and Western Christians have far more agreement than disagreement.
Ultimately our authority's Scripture.
Every believer's called to test all things by God's Word. THE THINGS REVEALED BELONG TO US AND TO TO OUR CHILDREN FOREVER (Deu 29:29)!
The Trinity's mysteries are greater than our ability to fully explain
unsafe
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I totally agree with your post here-----
Question -----what Trinity's Mysteries do you think God holds back from us ???-------
For me -------I believe God can and does Reveal the Trinity's Mysteries if we seek that Mystery ---by asking the Holy Spirit to help us to get that Revelation -----
I see it this way -----
The Holy Spirit proceeds From the Father -as per scripture ----The Father sends out the Holy Spirit in His Son's Name ----
Scripture says ----Jesus Speaking Here ----John 14:26
Berean Literal Bible
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you⁺ all things and will remind you⁺ of all things that I said to you⁺.
The Holy Spirit then Proceeds Through the Son ------to people who have Saving Faith in Him and Receive Him-----
Just the way I see it -------and for me it makes perfect sense ------
Jesus has no part in sending out the Holy Spirit -----The Father Does that -----but the Spirit must Proceed THROUGH the Son ------
We see this in the Upper Room when Jesus in His Resurrected Spiritual Body gives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to the Disciples by His Breath -----
“And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit.’” (John 20:22)
This Connects the Trinity in my view ----as 3 separate persons coming from 1 God -----
This is from Bible Hub
in My name
• “In My name” ties the Spirit’s mission directly to Jesus’ authority (Colossians 3:17).
• Everything the Spirit does aligns with Christ’s character and redemptive work (John 16:13–14).
• As Jesus came in the Father’s name (John 5:43), the Spirit comes in Jesus’ name—creating an unbroken chain of divine authority and unity.
Jaebius
Canadian in Korea
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The Father, unsafe, sends. The Son sends! THE SPIRIT COMES!
The greatest mystery's why God would show such love toward sinners.
That the Father chose a people, the Son redeemed them and THE SPIRIT EFFECTUALLY CALLS AND INDWELLS THEM's a deeper mystery than I grasp.
I'm content to stop where Scripture stops. God's revelation asks us to worship before it asks us to speculate. Mysteries remind us that God's God and we're not
Is it difficult to discuss uncertainty of what information, messages we believe ... when there is someone that believe the infinite is hard set?
Thus those that reach for the story of the infinite become part of Game Theory ... as we follow the law to see its flaws as and exceptions ...
Those instituted of course are hostile and destructive to the light as it moves around in the ethereal space trying to examine itself ... while being referred to a mythical as the physical, establishmentarian sector say it is a myth in ghostly appearance ... eerie (Aryan) essence?
We excluded by those not allowing exclusion look back at the fixations with doubt and build a greater conscience with justice, kindness and acceptance that there were flaws and schisms as we reached out to look back into the past. Not for people living immediately for the moment but a more encompassing perspective. Sort of like a spatial vine of connection with what's beyond. Pure physical reality is a hard case here ... and find such elusive presence of part and futures as weird as Scrooge's Visions ... in the mean or medium ... how time presents itself in text ...
As the song goes: "Wasn't that a time?" Irish Song of lost desires! This goes when you learn something of the infinite gifts ... a weight when considering all those that will not become conscious ever ... and thus destructive force that the creative force beyond must drop in to experience what is painful.
Some people experience this when right on the edge of a greater consciousness ... a game pool that is located just beyond destructive containments ... in energy search, or power grab. Can you comprehend this in the presentation of the mental-character disturbances? These may present physically as moods ... situations that escape certain types of understanding that will not flow ... but sets up as magi gems ... Crystals? Great complexity of array ... even bloodstones ...
Thus those that reach for the story of the infinite become part of Game Theory ... as we follow the law to see its flaws as and exceptions ...
Those instituted of course are hostile and destructive to the light as it moves around in the ethereal space trying to examine itself ... while being referred to a mythical as the physical, establishmentarian sector say it is a myth in ghostly appearance ... eerie (Aryan) essence?
We excluded by those not allowing exclusion look back at the fixations with doubt and build a greater conscience with justice, kindness and acceptance that there were flaws and schisms as we reached out to look back into the past. Not for people living immediately for the moment but a more encompassing perspective. Sort of like a spatial vine of connection with what's beyond. Pure physical reality is a hard case here ... and find such elusive presence of part and futures as weird as Scrooge's Visions ... in the mean or medium ... how time presents itself in text ...
As the song goes: "Wasn't that a time?" Irish Song of lost desires! This goes when you learn something of the infinite gifts ... a weight when considering all those that will not become conscious ever ... and thus destructive force that the creative force beyond must drop in to experience what is painful.
Some people experience this when right on the edge of a greater consciousness ... a game pool that is located just beyond destructive containments ... in energy search, or power grab. Can you comprehend this in the presentation of the mental-character disturbances? These may present physically as moods ... situations that escape certain types of understanding that will not flow ... but sets up as magi gems ... Crystals? Great complexity of array ... even bloodstones ...
Then the consideration of quantum and Game Theory ... what's the chance the establishment could see it and thus as foreign becomes adversary ... that is like God vs mortal ... ad continuum ... sometime a few of us from out there drop in for a peek ... and find with the hatred presence ... it is time to leave ...
But it is tough for those with any sympathetic stint ... for those stuck! The counterpart floats off under Aristotle's direction on buoyancy of vacuum ... that deficiency is out there in accrued gathering of nihil items ... material that means nothing to great powers ... thus the pass ... like a bubble of consideration?
Ca Ption ... that penetrating cross ... stab of conscience ... about receiving and giving in balance and justice ... but kindly as myth blows through ... with sensitivity something is extracted ... then there is the insensitive ... hard cased? Turtled all the way to the base ...
But it is tough for those with any sympathetic stint ... for those stuck! The counterpart floats off under Aristotle's direction on buoyancy of vacuum ... that deficiency is out there in accrued gathering of nihil items ... material that means nothing to great powers ... thus the pass ... like a bubble of consideration?
Ca Ption ... that penetrating cross ... stab of conscience ... about receiving and giving in balance and justice ... but kindly as myth blows through ... with sensitivity something is extracted ... then there is the insensitive ... hard cased? Turtled all the way to the base ...
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unsafe
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What Exactly Is the Nicene Creed, and Is it Biblical?
While the Nicene Creed wasn’t the first Christian creed, it is the first (and the only) one that most Christians agree on.
www.biblestudytools.com
The Nicene Creed is biblical in the sense that it lines up with the gospel message and it summarizes biblical truths, but it’s not explicitly found in the Bible.
Since the original purpose of the creed was to clearly state the truth about Jesus and push back against Arianism (the heretical belief that Jesus is not divine), much of the creed discusses Jesus. Later when the divinity of the Holy Spirit was called into question, another section was added.
Here is a list of (only a few!) Bible references that support those two claims:
1. Jesus is as equally divine and eternal as the Father, not created by the Father.
- Micah 5:2
- John 1:1-3
- John 10:30
- 1 Corinthians 8:6
- Colossians 1:15-17
- Hebrews 1, particularly Hebrews 1:3
2. The Holy Spirit is as equally divine and eternal as the Father and the Son.
- Genesis 1:1-2
- Romans 8:9
- 1 Corinthians 2:11, 16
- 2 Corinthians 3:17
- 2 Corinthians 13:14
- Titus 3:4-6
The Nicene Creed is still relevant because the heresy it was first designed to fight still exists in the church.
Based on Lifeway’s latest (2020) State of Theology survey of more than 3,000 Americans, only 63% of people who attend church at least four times a month “agree that the Son of God existed before Jesus was born.”
The rest (37%) of them say that Jesus’ existence began when he was born to Mary and Joseph in Bethlehem. This may be a theological misunderstanding instead of a well-thought-out belief. But it hints of Arianism because it denies Jesus Christ’s eternal part in the Trinity.
Deciding what to believe about Jesus Christ is still the biggest question that people have to answer in life. After all, “‘the Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being’ (Hebrews 1:3), and so when we look on Jesus, we look on God.
Without confidence that Jesus is God, united in substance with the Father, we could not be sure that Jesus can speak for God, forgive sins for God, declare righteousness for God, or do anything to make us children of the Father,” as stated by ZondervanAchademic.com.
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
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Neither Arianism nor Nestorianism (nor many other so-called "heresies") have ever really died out. They pop up here and there, now and then. And that's not a bad thing. It means their implications matter to some people, perhaps many. Having a diversity of ideas challenges people and makes people think. It is suppression of ideas that is harmful, not presentation and discussion of them.
Some of those ideas as conceptions are difficult for those overwhelmed by the emotional sector of mind ... a cyclic image! It may be vast compared to the mortal bubble ...
Jaebius
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Mendalla, don't think all ideas are equally true.
The purpose of discussing heresies's to test everything against Scripture. Teachings were rejected because they undermined essential truths about Christ and the gospel.
There's value in recognizing that the Church's creeds weren't arbitrary exercises in suppression. They were attempts to faithfully articulate what Scripture teaches.
Discussion's healthy. Truth matters too
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
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But wouldn't the heretics argue they are doing this, too? Why give the established, institutional church a monopoly on understanding Scripture when it is inherently a subjective exercise? Churches are welcome to not allow heretics in their ranks but in this day and age, the heretics' viewpoint is as valid in a broader discussion (e.g. here) as the churches' and there is no such thing as heresy being a crime as it was in some past eras.
When considering the number of efforts to manipulate our minds by powers of leaders, business and BS ... how hard is it to find actual virtue in all these layers of obscurity? It is so bad I see it is even difficult to determine in what I previously was told was normal ... when the world appears to me to be a bit off by the overwhelming drive to misinform the populace. There is so much dirt and mire out there it is like Sirocco or some other metaphor for a dirt storm ...
Even the boogie horses have mixed relations with bulls ... according to the news ... boogie is a behind thing ...
Heresy: can you imagine being different because you learned of something in a BS that was imperfect?
Is anything in life that pure? Alas that is a difficult thing to communicate given the determinations that are blind ... just because they desire to accept it that way without a lot of evidence ... especially when dealing with nothing ... or nihilism ... a belief in things that just aren't physically proven ...
Sort of a word game as we assign words to that which is absent, or abstract ... dark and mysterious as song of love in a world overwhelmed with hate?
Nobody loves it it appears ... as it seems impractical!
GordW
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A more cynical view of the early councils is that one side had more votes than the other (or perhaps one side was favoured by Constantine is another perspective I have seen when it comes to the Council of Nicea which was the ARian controversy).