Novel Coronavirus

[Waterfall]

Just going to repeat this:

Why you should wear a mask to fight Covid-19, explained by several new studies

It’s true the evidence for masks was weak before. That’s changed.

www.vox.com

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Rita is asking some good questions about who the top decisions rest with. And there isn’t such a reputable agency looking into them, it would seem. All the agencies are busy looking into policies and drugs and information about the virus’ effects. Which they need to do, because the virus is REAL and it’s killing and disabling people, but... In that case, how do we seek answers to those good questions, from the people who govern our society?

 

[Ritafee]

but until you present verified scientific data through an uninfluenced independent reputable agency, some of the things you bring up would be negligible to believe and it makes you just as gullible as you see the rest of us.

Right back at you ...

 

[ChemGal]

I watched Dr Henry's briefing today. Someone asked about how quickly the virus changes. She said it changes very slowly so that suggests that a longer immunity and a vaccine that last longer are possible. I found that interesting

I haven't heard a correlation between how long immunity lasts and mutation rate. If a virus mutates enough a different vaccine may be needed but that's a separate issue from immunity to the original.

 

[ChemGal]

Rita is asking some good questions about who the top decisions rest with. And there isn’t such a reputable agency looking into them, it would seem. All the agencies are busy looking into policies and drugs and information about the virus’ effects. Which they need to do, because the virus is REAL and it’s killing and disabling people, but... In that case, how do we seek answers to those good questions, from the people who govern our society?

Looking into what specifically? If masks are safe? I think there's enough information to show that for the majority they are.

 

[Ritafee]

Just going to repeat this:

Why you should wear a mask to fight Covid-19, explained by several new studies

It’s true the evidence for masks was weak before. That’s changed.

www.vox.com

Masks also may encourage positive behavioral changes. One researcher found wearing a mask appeared to get people to physically distance farther from him, which could further prevent the spread of the coronavirus.


But that’s something, along with just about everything else related to masks and Covid-19, that still needs to be studied further.

And that is what I got out of that article ... this is a social engineering experiment and all the if's and's or but's and 'not a hill to die on' suggestions without conclusive evidence ... I'll use my sleeve and or a cloth handkerchief ... that's how my mother raised me ... mother's know best and I had the best mother. Too bad our health care system had neither the resources or time to 'care' for her better when she needed it. I am well aware of what the problems are around managing a health crisis ... lack of funding and resources for actual care ... more research and wear a mask is all we've got so far ... and people are dying ... and only a very small percent are dying from Carona when you compare 'real' numbers.

 

[Ritafee]

Looking into what specifically? If masks are safe? I think there's enough information to show that for the majority they are.

I am not really disputing the safety of masks .... I am disputing whether they are at all effective enough to mandate ... effective enough to warrant violent action against those who do not wish to comply ... and yes financial hardship by way of fines is violent action against someone who cannot afford the fine .

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Looking into what specifically? If masks are safe? I think there's enough information to show that for the majority they are.

No, about who is accountable for decision making around civil liberties (or not), and the long term outlook when those are taken away and the public gets used to it. People study that. But if the ones who study it take advantage of people with it because it benefits them are the only ones studying it, we won’t get the truth.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

There used to be more in depth investigative journalism to hold government accountable and to help answer deeper questions about what’s going on behind the scenes. A few big things have happened to errode jounalism in the past few decades, from my observation and what I’ve learned and pieced together. 1) neoliberalism and the capitalist free market system hypercommercialized everything. News outlets are biased towards taking the political angles and direction that their advertising funders and business investors want them to take. That errodes journalstic integrity. 2) News editors that are in it for big profit or have a political lobbies influencing them, don’t have to bother to get the truth to us. They’re quite comfortable without bothering, and paying writers for half assed stories - and the writers have to do it to get paid. Publishers, and editors who are their gatekeepers, want to keep costs and risk to their business - because it’s a competitive business - low, and profits high. 3) Now we have powers like Trump trying to discredit journalistic sources that are trying to hold him accountable by starting the “Fake News!” Culture War. Sign of a true fascist. Also, it’s an ugly trifecta of forces that have collided at this point. I don’t think always deliberately, but the high level opportunists will keep track of how they can steer things to their advantage, and will at times scratch each other’s backs. I think because neoliberalism was a terrible greedy idea to being with - greed hidden beneath a facade of public interest - that grew into something worse over time.

That relates to covid because of the longer term civil liberties questions. People have a right, and responsibility to be concerned about that, too.

Covid is real and awful, so we need to be vigilant about holding the governments accountable for finding treatments and vaccines for that - and about defending civil liberties.

 

[Ritafee]

Will you sign?

On August 5th, 2020, MP Leah Gazan submitted a motion to convert the CERB into a permanent Guaranteed Livable Basic Income. The motion comes out of a collaborative effort with Basic Income Manitoba and the Basic Income Canada Network.

A PETITION TO THE HOUSE OF COMMONS

A call to support Motion M-46 for a Guaranteed Livable Basic Income in Canada
We, the undersigned Citizens of Canada, draw the attention of the House of Commons to the following:

WHEREAS, a Guaranteed Livable Basic Income (GLBI) would provide a financial safety net for all persons in Canada, as a means of eradicating poverty and addressing situations of precarity, especially through major economic shifts, global pandemics, natural disasters, major industry automation and job loss;

WHEREAS, a GLBI would reduce Canada’s growing poverty crisis, thereby reducing the demand on social services, law enforcement and healthcare, resulting in additional cost savings for government and tax payers;

WHEREAS, a GLBI would account for regional and territorial differences in living costs for all Canadians over the age of 18, and be administered through the existing tax system at no extra cost;

WHEREAS, a GLBI would not require participation in the labour market, education or training in order to be eligible, and would be paid on a regular basis;

WHEREAS, every person in Canada has the right to live in dignity, with access to a livable income, accessible affordable social housing, food security, expanded health services, and meet their basic human needs, no matter their status;

WHEREAS, the COVID-19 pandemic is an opportunity to take action and be a country that upholds human rights for all where no one is left behind; and

WHEREAS, a GLBI would replace the temporary Canada Emergency Response Benefit on an ongoing and permanent basis in a concerted effort to eradicate poverty and ensure the respect, dignity and security of all persons in Canada now and for future generations.

THEREFORE, your petitioners call on the Government of Canada to support Motion M-46 for a Guaranteed Livable Basic Income, the first initiative before the House of Commons during the COVID-19 pandemic to address poverty as a human rights crisis, which calls on Canada to take action, introduce legislation, and work with provincial and territorial governments and Indigenous peoples to ensure that a Guaranteed Livable Basic Income replace the Canada Emergency Response Benefit on an ongoing and permanent basis in a concerted effort to eradicate poverty and ensure the respect, dignity and security of all persons in Canada.

Read the full text of M-46. Add your name to support MP Leah Gazan's motion here:

SIGN NOW TO SUPPORT M-46 GUARANTEED LIVABLE BASIC INCOME

On August 5th, 2020, MP Leah Gazan submitted a motion to convert the CERB into a permanent Guaranteed Livable Basic Income. Add your name to support MP Leah Gazan's motion.

www.leahgazan.ca

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

What happens to provincial disability? If people have to go off of it entirely and their files are closed will they lose their extended healthcare and bus pass? If their health deteriorates and they can’t get around...then what are their choices?

I say no. Not in Canada. Not unless some questions about how it will roll out are clearer. Maybe it would be a good idea for Americans - maybe the most vulnerable won’t risk losing what they already don’t have. I don’t know if that’s the case there, though.

It sounds like it might be a neoliberal cost cutting plan, to me. Like when so many social services were privatized and they went with short-order, one size fits all, approaches to “helping” people with diverse obstacles - the service quality deteriorated and it became more of a business-administrative enterprise.

It could work but some questions still need to be answered, and assurances made, first.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

When mincome happened, some areas of equality were further behind at the time, than they are now. It was progressive then. That’s why it was dropped and buried. It was radical. It might not be as progressive now. That may be a big part of the reason why some right wing politicians support it. They want social regression - they want fewer opportunities for women and minorities to overcome oppression - they do not want not progress; particularly not fascists and/ or theocrats. I’d need to know that progress already made was secure - and that guaranteed basic income wasn’t going to take us backwards in any area where we may have improved. See above post.

In the meantime just keep CERB going for those who need it and have it.

 

[Mrs.Anteater]

Might countries that are doing better be doing just as better without all the masking

Rita, the countries you quoted earlier that did better, Denmark and Norway, were the ones that locked down the country from the outside earlier than Sweden.

 

[Northwind]

I haven't heard a correlation between how long immunity lasts and mutation rate. If a virus mutates enough a different vaccine may be needed but that's a separate issue from immunity to the original.

Well I am paraphrasing Dr Henry who likely said it better. She was hopeful.

 

[Waterfall]

Rita, the countries you quoted earlier that did better, Denmark and Norway, were the ones that locked down the country from the outside earlier than Sweden.

Spain again is experiencing large amounts of COVID cases compared to their neighbours......not paying attention to the social distancing again, since easing up on restrictions.

 

[Ritafee]

Rita, the countries you quoted earlier that did better, Denmark and Norway, were the ones that locked down the country from the outside earlier than Sweden.

Denmark boasts one of the lowest COVID-19 death rates in the world. As of August 4, the Danes have suffered 616 COVID-19 deaths, according to figures from Johns Hopkins University.


That’s less than one-third of the number of Danes who die from pneumonia or influenza in a given year.


Despite this success, Danish leaders recently found themselves on the defensive. The reason is that Danes aren’t wearing face masks, and local authorities for the most part aren’t even recommending them.


This prompted Berlingske, the country’s oldest newspaper, to complain that Danes had positioned themselves “to the right of Trump.”


“The whole world is wearing face masks, even Donald Trump,” Berlingske pointed out.


This apparently did not sit well with Danish health officials. They responded by noting there is little conclusive evidence that face masks are an effective way to limit the spread of respiratory viruses.


“All these countries recommending face masks haven’t made their decisions based on new studies,” said Henning Bundgaard, chief physician at Denmark’s Rigshospitale, according to Bloomberg News. (Denmark has since updated its guidelines to encourage, but not require, the use of masks on public transit where social distancing may not be possible.)


Denmark is not alone.


Despite a global stampede of mask-wearing, data show that 80-90 percent of people in Finland and Holland say they “never” wear masks when they go out, a sharp contrast to the 80-90 percent of people in Spain and Italy who say they “always” wear masks when they go out.


Dutch public health officials recently explained why they’re not recommending masks.


"From a medical point of view, there is no evidence of a medical effect of wearing face masks, so we decided not to impose a national obligation," said Medical Care Minister Tamara van Ark.


Others, echoing statements similar to the US Surgeon General from early March, said masks could make individuals sicker and exacerbate the spread of the virus.


“Face masks in public places are not necessary, based on all the current evidence,” said Coen Berends, spokesman for the National Institute for Public Health and the Environment. “There is no benefit and there may even be negative impact.”


In Sweden, where COVID-19 deaths have slowed to a crawl, public health officials say they see “no point” in requiring individuals to wear masks.


“With numbers diminishing very quickly in Sweden, we see no point in wearing a face mask in Sweden, not even on public transport,” said Anders Tegnell, Sweden’s top infectious disease expert.

What’s Going on With Masks?

Europe's Top Health Officials Say Masks Aren't Helpful in Beating COVID-19

Public health officials in Denmark, Holland, and beyond say they have no intention of recommending face coverings, saying the science does not support it. “Face masks in public places are not necessary, based on all the current evidence,” said Coen Berends, spokesman for the National Institute...

fee.org

 

[Ritafee]

What happens to provincial disability? If people have to go off of it entirely and their files are closed will they lose their extended healthcare and bus pass? If their health deteriorates and they can’t get around...then what are their choices?

And now who is being selfish?

 

[Ritafee]

Cult (totalistic type): a group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea, or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control (e.g., isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressure, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgement, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of leaving it, etc) designed to advance the goals of the group's leaders, to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community.

-Louis Jolyon West

 

[Waterfall]

Denmark boasts one of the lowest COVID-19 death rates in the world. As of August 4, the Danes have suffered 616 COVID-19 deaths, according to figures from Johns Hopkins University.


That’s less than one-third of the number of Danes who die from pneumonia or influenza in a given year.


Despite this success, Danish leaders recently found themselves on the defensive. The reason is that Danes aren’t wearing face masks, and local authorities for the most part aren’t even recommending them.


This prompted Berlingske, the country’s oldest newspaper, to complain that Danes had positioned themselves “to the right of Trump.”


“The whole world is wearing face masks, even Donald Trump,” Berlingske pointed out.


This apparently did not sit well with Danish health officials. They responded by noting there is little conclusive evidence that face masks are an effective way to limit the spread of respiratory viruses.


“All these countries recommending face masks haven’t made their decisions based on new studies,” said Henning Bundgaard, chief physician at Denmark’s Rigshospitale, according to Bloomberg News. (Denmark has since updated its guidelines to encourage, but not require, the use of masks on public transit where social distancing may not be possible.)


Denmark is not alone.


Despite a global stampede of mask-wearing, data show that 80-90 percent of people in Finland and Holland say they “never” wear masks when they go out, a sharp contrast to the 80-90 percent of people in Spain and Italy who say they “always” wear masks when they go out.


Dutch public health officials recently explained why they’re not recommending masks.


"From a medical point of view, there is no evidence of a medical effect of wearing face masks, so we decided not to impose a national obligation," said Medical Care Minister Tamara van Ark.


Others, echoing statements similar to the US Surgeon General from early March, said masks could make individuals sicker and exacerbate the spread of the virus.


“Face masks in public places are not necessary, based on all the current evidence,” said Coen Berends, spokesman for the National Institute for Public Health and the Environment. “There is no benefit and there may even be negative impact.”


In Sweden, where COVID-19 deaths have slowed to a crawl, public health officials say they see “no point” in requiring individuals to wear masks.


“With numbers diminishing very quickly in Sweden, we see no point in wearing a face mask in Sweden, not even on public transport,” said Anders Tegnell, Sweden’s top infectious disease expert.

What’s Going on With Masks?

Europe's Top Health Officials Say Masks Aren't Helpful in Beating COVID-19

Public health officials in Denmark, Holland, and beyond say they have no intention of recommending face coverings, saying the science does not support it. “Face masks in public places are not necessary, based on all the current evidence,” said Coen Berends, spokesman for the National Institute...

fee.org

July 13th 2020:

https://www.thelocal.dk/20200713/are-more-people-in-denmark-going-to-wear-face-masks

This article says the Danish health authorities are dropping their opposition to face masks:

Danish health agency drops opposition to face masks

The Danish Health Authority now recommends using face masks in certain special situations, bringing the policy in Denmark closer to that of other European countries such as France and Germany.

www.thelocal.dk

 

[Waterfall]

Cult (totalistic type): a group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea, or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control (e.g., isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressure, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgement, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of leaving it, etc) designed to advance the goals of the group's leaders, to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community.

-Louis Jolyon West

Yet it has been demonstrated that when numbers go down for COVID, the restrictions are lifted in hopes of things returning to normal.....not a continued state.
Not sure how you equate isolation to protect vulnerable members of society as being detrimental when most would prefer their elderly and compromised were kept safe?