Muslims & Christians: Same God?

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Pr. Jae said:
Question - Did anyone here actually give a rat sass about the book I was talking about?
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I haven't read the book in question. I have read three of Volf's other works and generally appreciate the arguments he puts forward. As noted previously I don't always agree with Volf or his conclusions. When I do disagree I cannot say that it is because he hasn't been thorough. There are some starting points which we do not share and that colours the conclusions that each of us might arrive at.

I also do not have a deep knowledge of Islam so I won't pretend to know each and every similarity or distinction between it and Judaism and/or Christianity.

Pr. Jae said:
It was what this thread was to have been about.
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One of the historic perils of WonderCafe.ca and now Wondercafe2 is the ease with which tangents are introduced and followed. Unless you are prepared to firmly steer conversation stamping your feet near its end does nothing more than add to your character.

That said, I can empathize. I've started a number of threads over the years which don't always end up on the path I thought I started well. It can be disappointing and it is important not to take it personally.

Pr. Jae said:
I won't waste my time making such a thread again if no one truly gave a den.
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Did you really intend to sound so petulant? Do you think it is going to help get the conversation on track? Do you think it improves the regard that others have for you?

I can empathize that you wanted discussion and did not get the discussion you wanted. Advice for the next time, if you ever screw up the courage to give it a try. Engage the author yourself. Don't simply parrot points. When Volf says X tell us what you think of X. Many here may never have read anything by Volf and since we aren't having conversation directly with him give us someone to have conversation directly with. If you want conversation to happen try being a little less passive. 19 pages of responses and not once did you ever respond to a post made by anyone else. That is you deliberately not participating in conversation and yet you are mad at everyone else. In you opening post you clearly said,

Pr. Jae said:
I thought I might open a dialogue here on the issue at hand.
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9 different members responded and you engaged not a single one of them. Not a single one. And for that you are disappointed in us. Really! The most those 9 posters got out of you was 1 Like.

Given this and comments on the Last Post thread I suspect now is about time for another school stress induced melt-down. Do yourself a favour and try going out on a high note instead.
 
Neo said:
What's not legal tender is "how" you've interpreted that letter which was dictated by God. And this is the difference. You read John 14:6, for instance, in religious and theological terms. I read it in a much more global and universal way. And while you have the right to read it the way you do, what you don't have the right to, is to say how I'm following God is wrong because I see God differently.

Everything is relative to our own point of evolution, and we all witness the centre from a different angle. Therefore ours is not to judge.
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I Corinthians 2: 15-16
 
Is The God of The Bible . The same God as The Quran?

Suras of the The Holy Koran Part I
This taken from a page of The Quran.
Kill non-believers
4.89 : They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

If our GODS are the same . It would seem He is very mixed up.
 
airclean33 said:
Is The God of The Bible . The same God as The Quran?

Suras of the The Holy Koran Part I
This taken from a page of The Quran.
Kill non-believers
4.89 : They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

If our GODS are the same . It would seem He is very mixed up.
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Are you suggesting that the God of the OT never asked for murder or never commented genocide ?
 
revsdd said:
There are today "unitarian" as opposed to "Unitarian" Christians - ie, people who definitely define themselves as Christians but reject the concept of the trinity and are not part of the Unitarian Universalist Church. Whether they're considered "Christian" by other Christians is a different subject, and hard to do, since there's no universal body that gets to make the call on who is and who is not a Christian. One example of unitarian Christians would be the United Pentecostal Church. They call themselves a "Oneness" church rather than unitarian, possibly to avoid confusion with the UU Church. Some refer to the UPC as a "Jesus Only" church. Basically, while they don't shy away from "Father, Son and Holy Spirit," they believe that the Father and the Holy Spirit are just different titles for one God, and that the one God was manifested by Jesus in the flesh. So, for them, basically Jesus functions as Father, Son and Holy Spirit all in one, and there is no sense of one God existing in three persons, as in traditional Christianity. Rather than baptizing "in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit," they baptize only "in the name of Jesus Christ." In most other ways they're pretty typical Pentecostals. Tongues, etc. They are very charismatic and very, very socially conservative.

Strangely enough I had a talk with someone from a United Pentecostal Church just a couple of weeks ago about their beliefs. This is just a very brief synopsis. It's much more complicated.
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Thanks for the explanation sdd. I had a friend who was Pentecost. She spoke of things like when Jesus was creating the world, or when Jesus helped David kill Goliath, or when Jesus spoke to the prophets of the OT. I never understood. I asked her once "don't you mean 'God'. Jesus wasn't born until centuries later." "Well, Jesus - God - the same thing." Your explanation helps me to see where she might have been coming from.
 
Thanks all. I guess this thread serves as a message to me not to derail other people's threads. Much appreciated. :cool:
 
Seeler said:
Thanks for the explanation sdd. I had a friend who was Pentecost. She spoke of things like when Jesus was creating the world, or when Jesus helped David kill Goliath, or when Jesus spoke to the prophets of the OT. I never understood. I asked her once "don't you mean 'God'. Jesus wasn't born until centuries later." "Well, Jesus - God - the same thing." Your explanation helps me to see where she might have been coming from.
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Just remember - the United Pentecostal Church is distinct from the two major Pentecostal denominations in Canada - which are the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada and the Pentecostal Assemblies of Newfoundland. There's also a third, smaller pentecostal denomination called the Canadian Assemblies of God, which started as a Pentecostal ministry to Italian Canadians.

The United Pentecostal Church is unitarian, PAOC, PAON and CAG are all trinitarian, although the PAOC actually started as a "Oneness" (unitarian) movement and changed to trinitarian as a condition for joining the World Assemblies of God Fellowship (basically, the internatioal pentecostal organization) back in the 1920s. When PAOC decided to forego unitarianism for trinitarianism, another offshoot (still going) broke away in protest and formed another "oneness" pentecostal church called the Apostolic Church of Pentecost. The Apostolic Church of Pentecost did itself merge back in the 1930s with yet another unitarian pentecostal movement called the Evangelical Churches of Pentecost.

So, basically, here's the current lineup of pentecostalism in Canada:

Trinitarian Pentecostalism:
Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada
Pentecostal Assemblies of Newfoundland
Canadian Assemblies of God

Unitarian Pentecostalism:
United Pentecostal Church
Apostolic Church of Pentecost

Of course there are many independent pentecostal-style congregations scattered across the country as well.

Confused yet?
 
revsdd said:
Just remember - the United Pentecostal Church is distinct from the two major Pentecostal denominations in Canada - which are the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada and the Pentecostal Assemblies of Newfoundland. There's also a third, smaller pentecostal denomination called the Canadian Assemblies of God, which started as a Pentecostal ministry to Italian Canadians.

The United Pentecostal Church is unitarian, PAOC, PAON and CAG are all trinitarian, although the PAOC actually started as a "Oneness" (unitarian) movement and changed to trinitarian as a condition for joining the World Assemblies of God Fellowship (basically, the internatioal pentecostal organization) back in the 1920s. When PAOC decided to forego unitarianism for trinitarianism, another offshoot (still going) broke away in protest and formed another "oneness" pentecostal church called the Apostolic Church of Pentecost. The Apostolic Church of Pentecost did itself merge back in the 1930s with yet another unitarian pentecostal movement called the Evangelical Churches of Pentecost.

So, basically, here's the current lineup of pentecostalism in Canada:

Trinitarian Pentecostalism:
Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada
Pentecostal Assemblies of Newfoundland
Canadian Assemblies of God

Unitarian Pentecostalism:
United Pentecostal Church
Apostolic Church of Pentecost

Of course there are many independent pentecostal-style congregations scattered across the country as well.

Confused yet?
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not to mention most Pentecostal church congregants are stiff necked
 
Neo said:
Yes, this is true. I personally don't believe that Mohammed was of the same stature as the Christ.
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Whereas a Muslim would suggest that Jesus Christ was the last great prophet before Muhammad and that Muhammad was God's final revelation. What Jesus taught, according to them, was indeed "Islam" (submission to God) but his message was corrupted by his followers thus necessitating Muhammad.
 
airclean33 said:
Is The God of The Bible . The same God as The Quran?

Suras of the The Holy Koran Part I
This taken from a page of The Quran.
Kill non-believers
4.89 : They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

If our GODS are the same . It would seem He is very mixed up.
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Deuteronomy 17:
2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,
3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:
5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
 
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