Liberal Christian denominations

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chansen said:
That's part of your problem. You're not actively selling salvation to stupid people. That's where the easy growth is.
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In your opinion, then, our options for growth are to start selling salvation to stupid people or to promote secularism?
 
Go hunt down and torture a spirit until it gives you the answer. "Waterboarding the Spirit" has a nice ring to it.
 
You've been harassing the Spirit for years. You're going to gain some empathy for it now?
 
No one has any thoughts about whether we are, in fact, the most liberal denomination in the world?

I have also heard the claim that Voices United is the most progressive hymnbook in the world.
 
But Chansenm we are not trying to sell salvation to stupid people. We are inviting people (some challanged but also intelligent people) to share in the abundant life and to join us in our mission to feed the hungry, cloth the poorly clothed, provide shelter for the homeless, and be a friend to the friendless.
 
paradox3 said:
No one has any thoughts about whether we are, in fact, the most liberal denomination in the world?
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Without having a clear definition for what is meant by liberal, it's tough to state which denomination is the most liberal.
As for declaring the UCCan the 'most' anything is difficult I think, as it's pretty diverse. It's probably easier to do that with a smaller denomination that is more homogenous.
 
Having never experienced churches like United Church of Christ, or the Uniting Church of Australia, I can't say much about them. Many churches have produced liberal theologians - Crossan (RC), Borg (Lutheran), Anglican (or its American equivalent) Spong - and others. And there is great variety in individual congregations within a denomination, and individuals within a congregation.

It seems to me that the UCC is one of the most liberal - but perhaps I've been lucky in the congregations I've been most closely associated with
 
I have experience with the United Church community in a broad diversity of contexts. Together with other secular and religious liberal traditions these folk could be considered "salt of the earth". By their industry and thrift they laid the foundations of a strong social economy. Their children played and learned in the neighbourhood. These children were active and nourished by a fairly stable diet. With a little applied resolve education opened the way to opportunity. Life in the suburbs. The delight and benefit of technological progress.

It did not take long for the children to grow up. In that process noticing a discrepancy between what parents preached and what they practiced. The talk was all about God. The walk was all about "getting ahead". Teenagers noticed this discrepancy. They learned that "getting ahead" is what really matters. By early adulthood they dropped religious pretence.

Folk from here visited Toronto. Experienced two services with Gretta. Came home all excited. "She's saying exactly what you are saying. The only difference is she does not make use of "God talk" and you do." I grew up with "God talk". Our home was saturated with mother's love. My budding consciousness associated her love with "God talk". I have no interest in the game of I am right and you are wrong. Where has it gotten human being?

To be creative in any institution is to invite risk. This is a value I appreciate in the United Church. Again and again we have found ourselves at risk through preference of principle over pragmatism. Risk following creative engagement is beneficial. Where risk increases opportunity increases. Where risk is avoided stagnation sets in.

To be creative will bring boundary conversations into view. We sing about colouring outside the lines. We ought also live outside the lines. Something in the way we imagine and express our being in the world offers opportunity for new understanding and commitment. Are we not called as sowers of an alternative imagination?

I have been supported and encouraged by many United Church persons along my appointed way. This inspired me to think of the United Church as a net that catches many strange fish. Some want only red fish. Others want only blue. And so on. We welcome what others throw away.

A seed dies... puts down a deep root... sends up a stem... crowned by a canopy of branches bearing flower and fruit. I hold to much that is ancient and beyond empirical verification. I embrace the way of trial and error revealing what hinders and what helps.

I see science and religion as two hands united by one heart and one mind; one body in service to one purpose.

George



 
Seeler said:
But Chansenm we are not trying to sell salvation to stupid people. We are inviting people (some challanged but also intelligent people) to share in the abundant life and to join us in our mission to feed the hungry, cloth the poorly clothed, provide shelter for the homeless, and be a friend to the friendless.
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But you don't need to be a Christian to do that. That does not articulate why someone should be a member of the United Church of Canada.
 
If you don't want to join us Chansen you are welcome to politely ignore the invitation - but don't try to tell us what to do when apparently you don't understand what we are trying to do.
 
I guess there's different ways to see "liberal". Some would think a conservative church believing that Jesus is the son of God is pretty liberal and open minded as opposed to believing that He was a just a human who did great things might seem less open.
 
Seeler said:
If you don't want to join us Chansen you are welcome to politely ignore the invitation - but don't try to tell us what to do when apparently you don't understand what we are trying to do.
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You don't understand what you are trying to do. You can't explain why someone should join you and not volunteer for a charity where their dollars and their hours will be spent more efficiently helping those in need.

So no, I'm not going to politely ignore your incompetence and ongoing losing campaign for believers to more insane denominations.
 
What do you want from us Chansen?
Do you want us to try to 'sell salvation to stupid people' and become more like the conservative evangetical fundalmentlist churches?
or
Do you want us to stop being who we are, disband and cease to exist?
 
Seeler said:
But Chansenm we are not trying to sell salvation to stupid people. We are inviting people (some challanged but also intelligent people) to share in the abundant life and to join us in our mission to feed the hungry, cloth the poorly clothed, provide shelter for the homeless, and be a friend to the friendless.
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chansen said:
But you don't need to be a Christian to do that. That does not articulate why someone should be a member of the United Church of Canada.
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It does, if you unpack it a bit. I can get my social justice needs met elsewhere (Optimists, Rotary), I can (and do) make friends in other venues, I can find a bunch of individual clubs (a book club, a cooking club, a music society, a nature club) that will allow me to discuss and participate in activities I enjoy (although I confess that I'd have a hard time replacing my Tuesday night group; I have a limited number of friends who wish to have weekly discussions about the potential of divinity in some fashion or another). However, the 'right' church, one that is active, creative, multi-dimensional, can meet many of my needs under one roof. And there's absolutely no demands that I accede to any belief system, although if I wish to attend services on Sunday morning, a general understanding of where one's metaphors might lie in conjunction with a Christian belief system is helpful.

Sunday services are integral to my personal spirituality (which is primarily a meditative practice) by fine-tuning my intentions away from my own self-absorption.
 
Seeler said:
What do you want from us Chansen?
Do you want us to try to 'sell salvation to stupid people' and become more like the conservative evangetical fundalmentlist churches?
or
Do you want us to stop being who we are, disband and cease to exist?
Click to expand...
Was about to pose another question to @chansen but I will await his response to your post. . .
I have the impression he would like us to pursue secularism but I am not sure for what purpose.
 
Seeler said:
What do you want from us Chansen?
Do you want us to try to 'sell salvation to stupid people' and become more like the conservative evangetical fundalmentlist churches?
or
Do you want us to stop being who we are, disband and cease to exist?
Click to expand...
I think you're losing to more evangelical churches, in relative terms. You can't decide what you want to be. Cruxifusion wants you to be more like them. Others want you to be more inclusive of questioning or even open disbelief.

I don't think you have the (dis)credibility to take on the more rigid, evangelical churches like some want you to. I think allowing open disbelief and focusing on common ground is a potential way forward. At the very least, I think it's the most honest way forward.

I don't understand what it matters if people don't believe, it's true. Still, the issues you often speak to are independent of faith. I certainly agree with most of them, and I don't respect faith at all. But you cut yourself off from so many people by insisting on faith. In doing so, you cut yourselves off from an increasing percentage of the population.
 
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