Israel heating up again

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yeah, during the day it actually took car exhaust TOO LONG A TIME TO DISSOLVE IN THE AIR

and insects were swimming through the air

ewwwwwwww
 
so I see that today Egypt has put forward a ceasefire proposal ... both sides are reported to be giving it consideration ... will end my day with more prayers for peace in this siege.
 
In the end, Israel accepted but Hamas rejected. They have a vested interest in keeping it up because it lets them play the hero to the Palestinian people. There are no heroes left in this battle, just aggressors on both sides and victims on both sides.
 
That's true. I was really hoping the ceasefire would happen. :( The poor civilians! Especially the kids. Israel should ensure, really ensure, safe evacuation on humanitarian grounds if Hamas isn't going to stop and Israel feels they need to press on. I wish with all my heart that nobody was shooting rockets at anybody. It's pointless. Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind - the wise words of Gandhi. But both sides need to agree to stop. And Hamas rejected.

I read that Baird said Canada mourns the deaths of the innocent Palestinian civilians. It's the first time I've heard/ read him say anything close to that in awhile - ever I think.
 
Thing is...although it's very wrong that Hamas is firing rockets, Israel has far better defense because of the iron dome so few Israelis (one, who had a heart attack, last I read) whereas many Gazans have died, including children because they have no protection - and it looks like Hamas is using them as shields and doesn't care. Therefore I am having a hard time understanding why Israel would press on in those circumstances before they did more to ensure civilians' safety in Gaza. It seems very wrong to fire on a building knowing kids are likely in or around it (not to mention that when/ if this settles down that might just foment more hatred on the Palestinian side - when innocent kids die or are injured and orphaned, people get mad about it - the hate and vengeance just goes on and on). I know that's Hamas' MO, to use human shields, but Israel needs to rescue the civilians, the kids, out of there first - somehow try to get as many out as they can, with more than warnings (because civilians may not know Hamas are hiding nearby, and where are they supposed to go?) or it seems very wrong to press on.
 
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Exactly. And Hamas knows full well that Iron Dome is going to stop most of their fire and keeps doing it, which suggests that doing actual physical damage to Israel is not their goal. The Israeli government has staked its reputation on defeating the terrorists of Hamas (and I do accept the definition of Hamas as terrorists as long as they keep this up) and also the longer the bombardment goes on, the more likely it is that missiles will get past Iron Dome (no defense system is perfect) which would lead to serious political repercussions in Israel. So, the government is trying to shut Hamas down both to show strength and to prevent that eventuality. One dead Israeli would cause more problems for Netanyahu at home than hundreds of dead Palestinians. Rather like, say, how it was the rate of American casualties that killed the Iraq mission, even though ten or more times as many Iraqis died.
 
If doing physical damage to Israel is not their goal, what is their goal? Do damage to their reputation because they fired on civilians? Raise the hate and anger of the Palestinian populace?

Israel needs to get the civilians out, to relative safety regardless of Hamas' MO. They shouldn't be pawns or collateral damage. I'm just worried about the innocents.
 
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Also...if Gazans are abandoned, orphaned and left worse off than before that's the sort of thing that creates more extremists. It doesn't tend to just make the people say "okay you win. we'll be good". When has it ever really had that effect? It means that kids with dead parents and nothing left and nowhere to go, grow up to hate.
 
Kimmio said:
If doing physical damage to Israel is not their goal, what is their goal? Do damage to their reputation because they fired on civilians? Raise the hate and anger of the Palestinian populace?

Israel needs to get the civilians out, to relative safety regardless of Hamas' MO. They shouldn't be pawns or collateral damage. I'm just worried about the innocents.
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have you watched Howard's video I posted?

Each time the Dome Defense is used, it costs money...Israel has a very small population & a finite budget...if Hamas can launch enough rockets, then Israel can no longer defend itself with its Dome Defense...

Also, isn't it great that Israel 'phones ahead' to the places it air strikes, to tell the civilians to get the heck out of dodge?

I really don't hear of Hamas doing that...
 
Mendalla said:
In the end, Israel accepted but Hamas rejected. They have a vested interest in keeping it up because it lets them play the hero to the Palestinian people. There are no heroes left in this battle, just aggressors on both sides and victims on both sides.
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darnie darn darns
 
Yes...but to what 'safe ground'? And if their homes are hit, then where? Right now Gaza's sealed off. Also, I read in the article I posted upthread, one of the kids was hit while outside playing with his friends. Another's parents were killed when the family was eating just outside the house. I don't think they have bomb shelters. Maybe they do (?) anyone know?

What Hamas is doing is really bad, firing on Israel. That doesn't mean I think it's okay that Palestinian civilians, including kids, are getting killed. Their lives are worth something too.
 
Kimmio said:
Yes...but to what 'safe ground'? And if their homes are hit, then where? Right now Gaza's sealed off. Also, I read in the article I posted upthread, one of the kids was hit while outside playing with his friends. Another's parents were killed when the family was eating just outside the house. I don't think they have bomb shelters. Maybe they do (?) anyone know?

What Hamas is doing is really bad, firing on Israel. That doesn't mean I think it's okay that Palestinian civilians, including kids, are getting killed. Their lives are worth something too.
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why don't you try to find these things out? the internet, library & university professors are your friends
(it'll help you learn between what you wish for, what actually happened & what is possible so that you'll be able to be even more awesome here)
good luck!
 
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Kimmio - Gaza has been 'sealed off' since about 1998 - blockaded by both Egypt & Israel. It is a miniscule geographic area, seriously overpopulated, with infrastructure that has been largely decimated by years of conflict. There really is no 'safe ground'.

This is an excerpt from an e-mail sent by friend yesterday - from TelAviv - he is there with his is Israeli wife, 8 year old son & 3 year old daughter -

We have at least one air raid siren every day and if we at our home (where we have a bomb shelter) we go in there until we heard the missile blow up in the sky over head by an Israel missile - the way it works is that Israel has the DOME defense system that detects any missile sent by Hamas into Israel and sends a counter missile to blow it up. So once the siren goes depending where you are: if your outside you have to lay on the ground and put your hands over your head to protect your face and head from flying debris or go to the closest building that might have a bomb shelter or go under a set of stairs or an arch way in a building until the missile is exploded in the air. Since I have been here we have had one siren per day with 1 to 3 missile exploding above us in the sky. Most of the time it has been while in our rented house. (name deleted - son age 8) has been outside and has laid on the ground. (name deleted - wife), kids and friends have been outside and have either used bomb shelters or stairways. If you happen to be in a car you stop and turn off the engine and run or walk quickly to the nearest place of safety or just lie on the ground with hands over your head. It not so much the missiles that is unsettling to everyone here in Israel but its the mood it creates for everyone. People are on edge. People are reluctant to go out as often, they hesitate to make plans. (name deleted - wife) has been pretty good - they (her friends and family) deal with as it comes as most people do. I try not to think about it and go day by day. The other day I was at a friends place without the family and when the siren came on we just stayed in the room until we heard the explosion.

I cannot even imagine what it must be like to be in Palestine.

The United Church has, from time to time, sent missions of 'observers' - I recall former Moderator (David Guilliano?) writing a blog about his visits to Israel & Palestine - during a time of comparative peace. One of my local ministers went on such a visit about two years ago.
 
I thought Egypt had let people through before? And I read about - awhile back - (illegal) tunnels that were destroyed/ sealed off.

Inanna, I was proposing the question to you because we're having a conversation, not asking you to tell me to look it up. I know I can look it up. Grr. Stop 'coaching' me, my friend. My thoughts are "they've got nowhere safe to go" and I wonder what you think. What's your opinion, on an equal conversational level not as my coach, about the state of their safety considering they can't leave (not Howard Bloom or a professors - yours).
 
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Inanna...so I read something about this yesterday before I asked you. It must not have struck me as 'safe'. There are 10,000 people who've sought shelter in 15 UN schools set up as 'shelters'...relatively speaking, again, that does not sound like a place I would feel safe under those circumstances. I think I'd feel much safer to be on the other side of the fence (although it would be very unnerving).. No word about bomb shelters. Just people crowded together in schools.

http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/world/story/1.2705466
 
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Carolla said:
Kimmio - Gaza has been 'sealed off' since about 1998 - blockaded by both Egypt & Israel. It is a miniscule geographic area, seriously overpopulated, with infrastructure that has been largely decimated by years of conflict. There really is no 'safe ground'.

This is an excerpt from an e-mail sent by friend yesterday - from TelAviv - he is there with his is Israeli wife, 8 year old son & 3 year old daughter -

We have at least one air raid siren every day and if we at our home (where we have a bomb shelter) we go in there until we heard the missile blow up in the sky over head by an Israel missile - the way it works is that Israel has the DOME defense system that detects any missile sent by Hamas into Israel and sends a counter missile to blow it up. So once the siren goes depending where you are: if your outside you have to lay on the ground and put your hands over your head to protect your face and head from flying debris or go to the closest building that might have a bomb shelter or go under a set of stairs or an arch way in a building until the missile is exploded in the air. Since I have been here we have had one siren per day with 1 to 3 missile exploding above us in the sky. Most of the time it has been while in our rented house. (name deleted - son age 8) has been outside and has laid on the ground. (name deleted - wife), kids and friends have been outside and have either used bomb shelters or stairways. If you happen to be in a car you stop and turn off the engine and run or walk quickly to the nearest place of safety or just lie on the ground with hands over your head. It not so much the missiles that is unsettling to everyone here in Israel but its the mood it creates for everyone. People are on edge. People are reluctant to go out as often, they hesitate to make plans. (name deleted - wife) has been pretty good - they (her friends and family) deal with as it comes as most people do. I try not to think about it and go day by day. The other day I was at a friends place without the family and when the siren came on we just stayed in the room until we heard the explosion.

I cannot even imagine what it must be like to be in Palestine.

The United Church has, from time to time, sent missions of 'observers' - I recall former Moderator (David Guilliano?) writing a blog about his visits to Israel & Palestine - during a time of comparative peace. One of my local ministers went on such a visit about two years ago.
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Sounds awful, Carolla. Just the sounds would scare me...and nor could I imagine being in Palestine. It'd be fascinating to visit the whole region if it weren't for the conflict. Because of it I wouldn't want to go there.
 
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