Israel heating up again

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@Inannawhimsey - true - it can be a challenge to have fresh views. My mom always taught me also to "consider the source" of whatever I heard or read - advice that has held me in good stead many a time.
 
Carolla said:
@Inannawhimsey - true - it can be a challenge to have fresh views. My mom always taught me also to "consider the source" of whatever I heard or read - advice that has held me in good stead many a time.
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Heck ya! :3

I've learned to be sure to be on the watch for my own feelings (anxiety, fear, happyness, etc) and conflating them with facts aboot the world and other people from which those feelings apparently are caused.

And also to be doubtful aboot one's self as well -- be aware of one's own biases, likes, dislikes, etc etc etc

These feelings can and do affect how I see the world and other people. They can become 'facts'...and facts, I find, can be hard to dislodge or defrag :3

Its especially hard when dealing with any facts that make me very uncomfortable...i naturally don't want to feel uncomfortable...and its scary how automatic this happens...so i have to be wary...and learn some ways of dealing with it

And I find what we think of as real is often just popular views by other people and that can be hard to suss out as well...

and then Mendalla comes in the room

 
It's only not easy because people haven't decided that they won't use war to solve problems. I mean, as an ideal, peace is easy - isn't it? Just don't take up arms. They're out of the picture. "War is over if you want it"..."my yoke is easy my burden is light"...and all that. As a practicality it's not easy until people fighting wars decide it's easy.
 
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Kimmio said:
It's only not easy because people haven't decided that they won't use war to solve problems. I mean, as an ideal, peace is easy. As a practicality it's not easy until people fighting wars decide it's easy.
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actually, it isn't*?


if it were easy, then you wouldn't, say, have gotten so out-of-whack by a certain conversation with Pinga

and that, compared to what is going on in the ME right now, is 'easy' :3

there are multiple tribes of human beings, each with different goals, likes, dislikes, categories of what they find to be sacred, what they find to be blasphemous, different intelligences, skill sets, heights, economies, teachings, education level, people in authority, religions, in-groups, out-groups, etc etc etc

that's one thing i really respect aboot chansen -- since he doesn't grok what's going on there, he avoids writing aboot it here...that's a good position to take imho

if i could ever do it? ahhhhhh...
* i do share your wishes for peace there, i do...i wish i could wave a wand or go up to Heaven and take g_ddess by the short hairs and TELL HER STOP THE INSANITY...
 
there's an old buddhist tale that illustrates this

there is a country and it is full of war and strife. want and starvation. their neighbours would war with them as well. and the good Queen looked upon this and was sad. whatever She tried was to no avail.

so She sent far and wide for wise sages, counsel, to help Her country...

a young woman came and promised to help.

She taught her ways to several teachers, of living Rightly, of Right Speech, of Right Comportment, of how to live in harmony with each other and the country. these teachers took these and spread around and eventually, after more hardship & struggle, everyone in the country was enlightened.

the wars stopped. the endless violence stopped. they grew in knowledge and art. they built great works. sung gorgeous songs.

and, after years of this, the armies invaded and...slew relentlessly the Queen's people. broke their works. quieted their songs.

the Queen rushed to find the young woman sage, to ask her what went wrong

she answered that they forgot to enlighten their enemies and that that is an even harder task
 
Inannawhimsey said:
actually, it isn't*?


if it were easy, then you wouldn't, say, have gotten so out-of-whack by a certain conversation with Pinga

and that, compared to what is going on in the ME right now, is 'easy' :3

there are multiple tribes of human beings, each with different goals, likes, dislikes, categories of what they find to be sacred, what they find to be blasphemous, different intelligences, skill sets, heights, economies, teachings, education level, people in authority, religions, in-groups, out-groups, etc etc etc

that's one thing i really respect aboot chansen -- since he doesn't grok what's going on there, he avoids writing aboot it here...that's a good position to take imho

if i could ever do it? ahhhhhh...
* i do share your wishes for peace there, i do...i wish i could wave a wand or go up to Heaven and take g_ddess by the short hairs and TELL HER STOP THE INSANITY...
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But...that was verbal arguing. You are comparing that with war (which involves military weapons and other peoples' lives - please don't compare)...and, we stopped. That was, actually...after all that...compared with continuing to argue, easy. And much more preferable. And it was only arguing. No civilians were injured... John Lennon...the "war is over" guy...he was no stranger to getting into an argument or two about what was important to him.


So, the politicians can hole themselves up in a boardroom and argue all they want for all I care...between each other, and let everyone else get on with peace. Just take weapons of the table...as long as they exist someone is bound to decide that they can be used. If they don't exist they can't be used. It's a pie in the sky idea...global disarmourment...one that I wish we all could meditate more on/ pray for/ work for.
 
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Kimmio said:
But...we stopped. That was, actually...after all that...compared with continuing to argue, easy. And preferable.
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it wasn't the stopping that was the point i was trying to make with the analogy, but rather with it happening in the first place and having a duration :3 not having it happen in the first place is much simpler than peace in the ME, yet it happened...
 
Inannawhimsey said:
it wasn't the stopping that was the point i was trying to make with the analogy, but rather with it happening in the first place and having a duration :3 not having it happen in the first place is much simpler than peace in the ME, yet it happened...
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I agree. People are going to disagree simetimes and argue about it. That doesn't mean war is a solution to solving disagreement - and it has to stop somewhere.
 
Kimmio said:
But...that was verbal arguing. You are comparing that with war (which involves military weapons and other peoples' lives - please don't compare)...and, we stopped. That was, actually...after all that...compared with continuing to argue, easy. And much more preferable. And it was only arguing. No civilians were injured... John Lennon...the "war is over" guy...he was no stranger to getting into an argument or two about what was important to him.


So, the politicians can hole themselves up in a boardroom and argue all they want for all I care...between each other, and let everyone else get on with peace. Just take weapons of the table...as long as they exist someone is bound to decide that they can be used. If they don't exist they can't be used. It's a pie in the sky idea...global disarmourment...one that I wish we all could meditate more on/ pray for/ work for.
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Yes, you're restating my point that even though it was much easier that peace in the ME for you not to have that argument (and everything that followed for you from that, the distrust, anxiety, etc), you still had the argument and effects

So since something as simple as what happened with you still happened, how much more complicated peace in the ME must be?

Its MUCH more complicated.

You might just have to be satisfied with bearing witness.

(i'm sorry for using that moment as an illustrative point...I think I'll stop now before the heat gets too much to me...)
 
Yes. Bad point to drag up. Anyway....

Yes, we might just have to bear witness. Well, yeah. I have no control over what anyone in high places decides. None. I don't get to vote on the peace process anywhere. I just 'hope' that they (world leaders everywhere) will...open their eyes and see the devestation of war...decide to give peace a chance.
 
Taking weapons of war out of the equation would be easy to do though...really. That just involves one decision. Drop them. Walk away from them. Weapons no longer exist as a solution - that's the first step. The rest of the decisions could be decided much more safely, even if complicated.
 
@Carolla,

a useful place for overviews of global attitudes is Pew Research. there you can find scads of information to please any researcher's heart

here are some links to whet your whistle :3

http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/concerns-about-islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-east/

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

http://www.pewforum.org/2012/08/09/the-worlds-muslims-unity-and-diversity-executive-summary/

http://www.pewforum.org/2012/08/09/the-worlds-muslims-unity-and-diversity-appendix-a/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/19/AR2006051901769.html

http://www.pewglobal.org/2010/02/04/chapter-3-views-of-religious-groups/

interesting view: the rampant ME anti-semitism is an import from the West?
http://www.pewforum.org/2006/05/05/anti-semitism-and-anti-americanism/

http://www.pewglobal.org/2008/09/17/unfavorable-views-of-jews-and-muslims-on-the-increase-in-europe/
 
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Kimmio said:
Taking weapons of war out of the equation would be easy to do though...really. That just involves one decision. Drop them. Walk away from them. Weapons no longer exist as a solution - that's the first step. The rest of the decisions could be decided much more safely, even if complicated.
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And add to that all three faith groups involved, have as basic commandments, thou shalt not kill and love one another (even your enemies). It seems war causes amnesia for these basic commands. Not only that most people that choose to join an armed force have to be taught and conditioned to kill. It seems it's not natural for most people from the get go, yet some are taught to kill in defense of boundaries rather than human life.
 
War is an extreme collective case of poor 'anger management' and rage issues. Isn't it mind boggling, really and truly mind boggling that weapons of war exists...in this age we collectively revile and condemn violence as any way to behave in civil society - we know it's wrong. But we make excuses for war. That it's necessary. No it is not. It is no more okay than domestic violence or any other kind of violence. The problems that people disagree on could well be solved if war was not an option - or at least just dropped. Agree to disagree and get on with life. When war becomes an option, they're never solved - problems cannot be solved with wars raging - where negative emotions are allowed to escalate to the point that people think up unthinkable, unimaginable machines of war - and use them - and it proliferates - it's a vicious retributive cycle.
 
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i remember the Kosovo war

where ordinary people just like us; middle-class, neighbours

proceeded to murder each other

also, on war


wars seem to follow the power law, meaning that over time, we will have less wars, but the wars that do happen will be more severe...


Also, Scott Atran on "Good guys kill better, or How to Outwit the Bad Beast of Our Nature"

Fellow Canadian Stephen Pinker


Scott Atran's power law of history :"The major events that determine human history follow a power distribution (a more or less straight line on a log-log scale), with catastrophic and cascading consequences (economic and health crises, political and cultural revolutions, war and terrorism, etc.), because people naturally prefer to act upon the future based on their modeling of past occurrences. People do not repeat the catastrophes of history because they forget it; people build up self-destructing ideologies and behavior patterns that continue history's catastrophic path because they remember the past too well (e.g., "the maginot effect" for war and the soon-to-be "box-cutting effect" for terrorism)."
 
It wasn't just Kosovo. It's a very bizarre tribal phenomonon there how they get along and then go to war every 50 years or so. I wish I had that post Rev Steven wrote on the old WC about Franz Ferdinand. And a similar thing is happening in Ukraine. I'm not denying that it does happen, and has happened...just look around it's pretty bad in many places...I am saying take warfare off the table. Take warfare off the table. Take warfare off the table. Whatever the theories, we can see devestating now and we owe it to the future of the human race to disarm everywhere. Take warfare off the table. Who cares who said what unless we take warfare off the table. Who cares what happened when unless we take warfare off the table. Who cares about the theories unless we take warfare of the table. Before anything else, take warfare off the table. Keep talking about it. I don't care how simplistic and naive it sounds.
 
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oh, sorry, i wasn't writing to you...just adding more to this thread of some people's empirical investigations into war

MAN was it hot last night

i don't like the cognitive disconnect between seeing the temperature and seeing the darkness outside
 
it's even cooler in Jerusalem, Israel...but Haifa, on the COAST, is hotter...

what's going on with the world?

the centre cannot hold! aiiieeeee!
 
Inannawhimsey said:
oh, sorry, i wasn't writing to you...just adding more to this thread of some people's empirical investigations into war

MAN was it hot last night

i don't like the cognitive disconnect between seeing the temperature and seeing the darkness outside
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I know what you mean. I woke up 12 hours ago and it's been a rough day dealing with the heat. Makes me a wee bit irritable. There was a breeze for about 1/2 hour but that's it.
 
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