How to read/study: Heaven and Hell : A History of the Afterlife by Bart Ehrman

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How would you like to study "Heaven and Hell" by Bart Ehrman

  • More casually with an R&F "In which I read" thread

    Votes: 1 25.0%
  • A study group in Study Groups

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Either is fine

    Votes: 3 75.0%
  • Not interested

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    4
  • Poll closed .

Waterfall

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Waterfall ---the Scripture answers your Question -----of the body on resurrection

Philippians 3:20-21 (AMP)​

20 But [we are different, because] our citizenship is in heaven. And from there we eagerly await [the coming of] the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;

21 who, by exerting that power which enables Him even to subject everything to Himself, will [not only] transform [but completely refashion] our earthly bodies so that they will be like His glorious resurrected body

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This is from Bart's blog -----about the resurrection ----This Response that Mr Bart gives here will show you he has no idea what he is talking about ---he goes around the Mountain ---trying to poorly answer the question ask -----and don't forget Mr bart is talking about the resurrection of the flesh here -----The Flesh is not resurrected -----the Body is changed from Physical to Spiritual --------read here


Paul and the Resurrection of the “Flesh”?​

October 9, 2012

QUESTIONS:
But what is a BODILY resurrection without the flesh? And doesn’t this indicate that the flesh (the corpse) didn’t matter anymore and could be left behind, rotting and decomposing? Isn’t it all about the spirit finally getting this new, better, perfect, divine ‘body’?

Addendum: The Greek for ‘spiritual’ (like in spiritual body) is pneumatikos, right? According to Strong’s that means: pertaining to wind or breath, windy, exposed to the wind, blowing. Now those wouldn’t be obvious words to describe something physical or made out of matter, would it? They seems to rather define something ‘intangible’

RESPONSE:
OK, I’ve been getting a lot of questions along these lines (some on the blog itself). So I need to try to clarify the whole matter. It’s not easy, for a variety of reasons. But I’ll do my best.

First thing to stress: the ancient apocalyptic view of the human that Paul had is not the view of the human that WE have. This is one instance where it becomes crystal clear that we have to try to think in a way that we are decidedly not accustomed to if we want to understand Paul. For US, the body is made of flesh, so when we speak of flesh, we speak of the body. For Paul, the flesh and the body were two different things. That’s because, for him, “flesh” does not refer to what WE refer to when we refer to flesh. That is, we think of it as the meat that is hanging on our bones; but that is not what Paul is referring to. He does, of course, know that there is meat hanging on our bones, but that is what he thinks of as our body. It is not our flesh. “Flesh” is a technical term for Paul. It is the bad side of being human. It is that part of the human that has been corrupted by sin and is alienated from God. The flesh is the reason we cannot please God even by keeping the Law. Because sin, using the flesh, forces us to do things in opposition to God. The flesh needs to be destroyed. But since the flesh is not the same thing as the body, that does *not* mean that the body has to be destroyed. The body has to be redeemed, not destroyed. (See how Paul talks about “flesh” in Romans 6-8
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So if we put in bold what he says here --it really makes no sense and he doesn't answer the Question at all -----he just uses a lot of word but gives no explanation of what Paul means here -and what a horror description of the flesh ----meat that is hanging on our bones ------

This is Mr Bart's quote --------
For US, the body is made of flesh, so when we speak of flesh, we speak of the body. For Paul, the flesh and the body were two different things. That’s because, for him, “flesh” does not refer to what WE refer to when we refer to flesh. That is, we think of it as the meat that is hanging on our bones; but that is not what Paul is referring to. He does, of course, know that there is meat hanging on our bones, but that is what he thinks of as our body.


then he says -----

“Flesh” is a technical term for Paul. It is the bad side of being human. It is that part of the human that has been corrupted by sin and is alienated from God. The flesh is the reason we cannot please God even by keeping the Law. Because sin, using the flesh, forces us to do things in opposition to God. The flesh needs to be destroyed. But since the flesh is not the same thing as the body, that does *not* mean that the body has to be destroyed. The body has to be redeemed, not destroyed. (See how Paul talks about “flesh” in Romans 6-8)

So lets look at this he says -----

“Flesh” is a technical term for Paul. It is the bad side of being human. It is that part of the human that has been corrupted by sin and is alienated from God.


I say ---Well he says ----the flesh is the bad side of being humans ------the flesh here referrers to the Sin Nature we are born with -----but we also have a human Spirit and a corrupt soul -----all of which keep us alienated from God ------all have to be changed to be in right standing with God -----which he does not mention -----

He says -----The flesh is the reason we cannot please God even by keeping the Law.

I say ---
------So the flesh can't please God because ??---which he does not give any answer to -----this answer is because all we do should be God driven by and through faith in Him not self driven -------as seen below -----

Strongs ----4561 (sarks) is generally negative, referring to making decisions (actions) according to self – i.e. done apart from faith -----

Thus what is "of the flesh (carnal)" is by definition displeasing to the Lord – even things that seem "respectable!"

In short, flesh generally relates to unaided human effort, i.e. decisions (actions) that originate from self or are empowered by self.


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Then he says ----
---the flesh keeps us from keeping the law ------Because sin, using the flesh, forces us to do things in opposition to God.

I say -----This is a contradiction to what he says above ------as now he says sin is using the flesh to force us to do things in opposition to God ----where before he says the flesh is bad -His quote here ---------It is that part of the human that has been corrupted by sin ---

So the Flesh as in the sin nature is NOT what keeps us from keeping the Laws ---
-cause We have a nature to sin ---the flesh cannot force us to sin ---we make the decision to sin all by ourselves -----and God gave the blessings and cursing for obedience and disobedience for Choosing to keep the laws or not ------ choose life or death God says -----so this shows we have a choice

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He says -----The flesh needs to be destroyed. But since the flesh is not the same thing as the body, that does *not* mean that the body has to be destroyed. The body has to be redeemed, not destroyed. (See how Paul talks about “flesh” in Romans 6-8)

This is the scripture he quotes here ------

Romans 6:8 (AMP)​

8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live [together] with Him,

I say ---well folks here is where he goes off track -----because Romans 6:8 ---is referring to laying down the Sin Nature --it is not referring to the resurrected body that we will have when we ascend into heaven or hell ------which is what this question and answer was referring to ---
the title was -----Paul and the Resurrection of the “Flesh”?

So again he is floundering around here saying ------The flesh needs to be destroyed. But since the flesh is not the same thing as the body, that does *not* mean that the body has to be destroyed.

This physical body will die and be no more ----this physical body cannot be redeemed -------our Spirit and Soul needs to be made New in Christ -----

Our Physical body is made from the dust of the ground and the ground is still Cursed in this world and will be until the new earth comes into place ------no physical body will ever get into heaven or hell -----we will have different spiritual body -------

1 Corinthians 15:52 (AMP)​

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at [the sound of] the last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [who believed in Christ] will be raised imperishable, and we will be [completely] changed [wondrously transformed].

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Well its always interesting to hear more than one opinion. Thanks for your opinion.
 

Ritafee

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Whatever we discuss/debate must have a basis in reality for it to have any meaning.
“Perhaps the whole root of our trouble, the human trouble, is that we will sacrifice all the beauty of our lives, will imprison ourselves in totems, taboos, crosses, blood sacrifices, steeples, mosques, races, armies, flags, nations, in order to deny the fact of death, which is the only fact we have... One... ought to earn one's death by confronting with passion the conundrum of life.”
― James Baldwin, The Fire Next Time
 

Pavlos Maros

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Well its always interesting to hear more than one opinion. Thanks for your opinion.
I know your reply was too Unsafe. My point however, was made on what I said yesterday. "When discussing anything without any position in reality, you can only ever garner an opinion, and an opinion in that instant is effectively worthless. Whatever we discuss/debate must have a basis in reality for it to have any meaning."
 

unsafe

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When it comes to God's word and the truth of that word ------there is only one Person who has the right meaning and who can give the proper understanding to believers and that person is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit -----You cannot use worldly intellectual reasoning to discern what God's Spiritual Word is conveying ----

And Mr Bart is showing that with flying colours -----This man is suppose to be a New Testament Scholar -- and Teaches in a University ---so all those students who are being taught Wrongly are headed straight for the the wrong eternal home -----And that is what is so sad -----as far as I am concerned

Mr Bart is helping his neighbour all right -----straight to the-----:devil:----He quotes some scripture but never these below ----



Here are 7 biblical facts about heaven. It is …

-God's dwelling place (Psalms 33:13).
-Where Christ is today (Acts 1:11).
-Where Christians go when they die (Philippians 1:21-23).
-The Father's house (John 14:2).
-A city designed and built by God (Hebrews 11:10).
-A better country (Hebrews 11:16).
-Paradise (Luke 23:43).
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Scripture also just may reveal where Heaven is Located ---this is what Mr Bart should be teaching -----Truth

Isaiah 14 NKJ

The Fall of Lucifer​

12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
O [d]Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation

On the farthest sides of the north;


Strong's Concordance
tsaphon: north​
north boundary; ׳יַתְכְּתֵי צ remote parts of north Isaiah 14:13 (as divine abode),

Leviticus 1:11 (NKJV​

The Burnt Offerings
11 He shall kill it on the north side of the altar before the Lord; and the priests, Aaron’s sons, shall sprinkle its blood all around on the altar.
 

unsafe

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God's word has nothing to do with Religion -----Religion is a big farce ------and is the ruination of God's word------
 

Pavlos Maros

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The reality is that religion has existed for thousands of years.
An appeal to popularity fallacy, Waterfall.
A lot of people thought the sun went round the earth for thousands of years too. So what!
Doesn't make it factual does it. It just means people believed in the myths, and some still do.
 

BetteTheRed

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You're mis-using the word myth, Pavlos.

You don't "believe" in a myth. You ask what the meaning of the story is to you.

And I don't think you can apply "fact" to spiritual experiences, although it is a "fact" that spiritual experiences tend to "light up" specific parts of the brain, indicating that humans are hard-wired for these experiences.
 

Waterfall

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An appeal to popularity fallacy, Waterfall.
A lot of people thought the sun went round the earth for thousands of years too. So what!
Doesn't make it factual does it. It just means people believed in the myths, and some still do.
The fact that religion exists is not a fallacy....you're confusing this fact with whether God exists or not.
 

Pavlos Maros

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BetteThe Red said:
You're mis-using the word myth, Pavlos.
Somehow I don't think so. Myth | Definition of Myth by Oxford Dictionary on Lexico.com also meaning of Myth
BetteThe Red said:
You don't "believe" in a myth. You ask what the meaning of the story is to you.
Yes, you do actually. a little further down on the link above.
BetteThe Red said:
And I don't think you can apply "fact" to spiritual experiences, although it is a "fact" that spiritual experiences tend to "light up" specific parts of the brain, indicating that humans are hard-wired for these experiences.
As is everything your body experiences be it real or imaginary.
 

Waterfall

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I hate to ask, how did you get to that from what I said??????
Right from the start you have brought God into the equation, not me. I just said religion exists.
And no I didn't mention that God has anything to do with religion because I only stated religion exists.....which is a fact.
 

Pavlos Maros

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Right from the start you have brought God into the equation, not me. I just said religion exists.
And no I didn't mention that God has anything to do with religion because I only stated religion exists.....which is a fact.
Can you tell me what post that was?
Because I can only see where you mentioned god in post 70, and again in 75.?????
Oh, and while you're at it could you show me a religion without a god.
 

BetteTheRed

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I think that Waterfall's got a point. No matter what myths each religion relies on, there isn't a culture on earth without some religious sort of framework - rituals, rules, etc. The universality of "religion" is evidence of, at least, the need to assuage the human fear of death.
 

Waterfall

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Can you tell me what post that was?
Because I can only see where you mentioned god in post 70, and again in 75.?????
Oh, and while you're at it could you show me a religion without a god.
66,68 the beginning of this conversation
 

Mendalla

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Oh, and while you're at it could you show me a religion without a god.

Much of Buddhism though some argue it is more of a philosophy in that way.

Many animist traditions believe in spirits without having deities in the classic Western sense.

Religion is not automatically about deity(ies) but usually is. It is, or should be, about how we find our meaning and place in existence. Often, but not always, this involves supernatural beliefs.
 

Pavlos Maros

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I think that Waterfall's got a point. No matter what myths each religion relies on, there isn't a culture on earth without some religious sort of framework - rituals, rules, etc. The universality of "religion" is evidence of, at least, the need to assuage the human fear of death.
I'm not disputing his point on what he said. It is his claim that god doesn't come into the equation. religion noun - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com Religions and their belief in their god/gods have been around for thousands of years. Which is an appeal to popularity fallacy. Because it has been around a long time does not make it true. Religions being around a long time are fact, but their doctrines and tenets are not. And he's trying to dissociate them from the religions, Which is wrong, because it is the backbone of all religions.
66,68 the beginning of this conversation

You wrote 66 and 68 makes no mention of god. Would you like to try again?
Much of Buddhism
Buddhism contains a vast array of gods. Buddhist Mythology - the Gods of Buddhism Buddhist deities - Google Search
 
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