How to read/study: Heaven and Hell : A History of the Afterlife by Bart Ehrman

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How would you like to study "Heaven and Hell" by Bart Ehrman

  • More casually with an R&F "In which I read" thread

    Votes: 1 25.0%
  • A study group in Study Groups

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Either is fine

    Votes: 3 75.0%
  • Not interested

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    4
  • Poll closed .

Mendalla

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I myself have been on a mountain sacred to Quanyin, the boddhisatva of mercy and childbirth. We know for a fact this is a repurposed pre-Buddhist deity. The rites were definitely theistic in nature, so I agree that Buddhism has those elements. But Buddhism is such a diverse tradition, making any sweeping statement about it on anything is risky. The Buddha himself never taught about worshipping gods, only a path to escape suffering. So it is not inherently theistic. The theistic sects emerged because of merging with local religions (e.g. in Tibet and China). In non-theistic Buddhisms, the boddhisatvas and buddhas are regarded as enlightened humans who have achieved Nirvana, not gods in the classical sense. They rose up, rather than coming down, so to speak. So a lot depends on which particular sect or school of Buddhism you are looking at.
 

Ritafee

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Whatever we discuss/debate must have a basis in reality for it to have any meaning."


1613693997931.png

Ellul summarizes: "The effort to affirm science by itself, without limit, as judge of everything and carrying its own legitimization inevitably involved, as the other side of the coin, the devastation of the world, the squandering of possibilities, the frenzy of destruction" (p. 153).
 

Waterfall

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Makeup Love GIF by Chymes





You wrote 66 and 68 makes no mention of god. Would you like to try again?
Not really. By the way, I'm a she, not a he.
 

unsafe

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Over in the study thread about heaven and hell ------Repentance is mentioned as a change of direction ----

Well True Repentance is actually a Mind change ------you can't change your direction without changing the way you think -------you have to change your Old way of worldly thinking to God's way of thinking -----So True repentance is not just changing your direction by your self ------it is changing your mind to accept God's will for your life --------

Strong's Concordance
metanoeó: to change one's mind or purpose
Usage: I repent, change my mind, change the inner man (particularly with reference to acceptance of the will of God)
 

unsafe

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Is Mr Bart afraid of death -----

Well he says this on his Facebook page ------read all --I am just posting parts of it ----


He says he is against dying and it is a terrifying prospect -----He use to be at one time afraid of going to hell ---but then when he became an agnostic he realised that it was the fear of Hell that kept him believing -----

I say ------So his first mistake is allowing the weed of fear to dupe him in his belief ------there is real faith and then there is faith that is contaminated -----Fear contaminates Faith -----

I say ---so we see that fear of hell is the reason he believed not his Love for God -----Fear does not come from God Folks ---fear is Satan's hook -----You can't be in God's faith and be in fear at the same time -----God's Love drives out all fear -----

So for people who love God --which is the first command there is no fear in death ------there is a transition from Physical death to Spiritual life ------

He says that he over came his fear by thinking rationally not irrationally as if there is a loving God He certainly is not intent on torturing most of the human race with unspeakable torments for trillions of years ------that would make Him the worst God -----

I say ---Well --here he goes blaming God for the human race going to be tortured ------this is suppose to be a well educated man in the scripture and understanding it ------blaming God for where people put Themselves ------God Folks Does not send anyone to hell ----People send themselves there ------Mr Bart's ignorance is wildly showing here of his understanding of who sends who to hell and why ------such nonsense he is peddling on his Facebook page ------

I say ---Many --Many people believe that God's love will keep them from God's righteous judgement of them rejecting the only one who paid the price for their sins who is Jesus Christ ------this is false Doctrine Folks ------do not fall for this nonsense -------God loves all His creation but to receive a heaven bound ticket you need Jesus in you -----and that is what the truth of the scripture says ------

God's Covenant of Salvation by Grace through Faith is Conditional ---- Folks -----the scripture is very clear -----you have a choice to receive it or reject it ------if you reject it ---that is on you ----not God ----if you reject God the Son ---you also reject God the Father as the 2 are one ----not good to get into heaven there ------MR Bart


Romans 10:9-10 (AMP)​

9 because if you acknowledge and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord [recognizing His power, authority, and majesty as God], and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

10 For with the heart a person believes [in Christ as Savior] resulting in his justification [that is, being made righteous—being freed of the guilt of sin and made acceptable to God]; and with the mouth he acknowledges and confesses [his faith openly], resulting in and confirming [his] salvation.
 

BetteTheRed

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He says he is against dying and it is a terrifying prospect -----He use to be at one time afraid of going to hell ---but then when he became an agnostic he realised that it was the fear of Hell that kept him believing -----

That's not a good summary of what he says, at all. He describes how his faith evolved from a childhood/childlike literal belief system, into a more nuanced adult belief system. He doesn't describe death as terrifying; he does describe it as the end.

And if you don't mind, unsafe, if you're going to use a title for Dr. Bart Ehrmann, it's Dr., not Mr.

Well --here he goes blaming God for the human race going to be tortured

Well, the way you tell it, it certainly sounds like a fair charge, anyway.

God made the world, including a talking snake, who tempted humanity to original sin (a 12th century idea which is very foreign to the Jewish idea of a rise to self-consciousness). This single couple are then separated from God for all time, even though, at the time, they had no knowledge of good and evil. Fast forward through some obvious incest, a failed planet (the Noah story), then fast forward through all of the Hebrew Bible, except for a few apocalyptic bits, and jump into the Jesus story. God provides a saviour to the world, who is executed by the state, but through the blood of his execution, saves a chosen few to live in Heaven with him forever. So, yeah, it sure sounds like a rigged system. In order to 'win' under this model, you need to have been born into the right place and time in order to be exactly the sort of American Fundamentalist Christian of which unsafe approves. Part of the magic of this model is that Fundamentalistic-type Christians tend to be of such an unpleasant basic nature that they drive away even potential converts.

So, yeah, God sure looks completely culpable in what you predict to be the terrible fate of most of humanity.
 

BetteTheRed

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Also, and as a complete aside, I am contemplating changing my name to something totally gender neutral so that I, too, can be oft-mistaken for a dude. :ROFLMAO:
 

unsafe

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You can call him whatever you want to there BetteTheRed -----To me he is MR Bart Ehrman ---

You said ------He doesn't describe death as terrifying;

I say
OH ---really ---better read his Facebook page ----he certainly does describe death as terrifying ------

You Said -----Well, the way you tell it, it certainly sounds like a fair charge, anyway.

I say
No the way he tells it it is God's fault and if you agree with him ---your guilty of playing the blame game like he is -----all people need to start taking responsibility for their choice and stop blaming God ---

You said ------God provides a saviour to the world, who is executed by the state, but through the blood of his execution, saves a chosen few to live in Heaven with him forever.

I say
No that is false ----He leaves the choice up to His Human Creation to make there own decision to take or reject His Free Gift to be saved -----

You Said -----God made the world, including a talking snake, who tempted humanity to original sin

I say
Here you are showing your Spiritual ignorance as to how Lucifer became Satan ---Angels have free will to choose to obey or disobey God ----Lucifer decided he wanted to be God and Pride and greed took him over ---can't blame God for what Lucifer decided to do on his own accord -----verse 13 --Pride of the heart here -----

And note -----this tells you where the 3rd heaven is located -------
farthest sides of the north;

And this also tells you where hell is located and who it was originally made for ------Lucifer
To the [e]lowest depths of the Pit.

Isaiah 14 NKJV

The Fall of Lucifer​

12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
O [d]Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!

13 For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;

I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’

15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the [e]lowest depths of the Pit.
 

Redbaron

The Legend Continues
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You said ------He doesn't describe death as terrifying;

I say
OH ---really ---better read his Facebook page ----he certainly does describe death as terrifying ------

You Said -----Well, the way you tell it, it certainly sounds like a fair charge, anyway.

I say
No the way he tells it it is God's fault and if you agree with him ---your guilty of playing the blame game like he is -----all people need to start taking responsibility for their choice and stop blaming God ---

We are not relying soley on the Facebook page as you do. We are actually reading the book Dr. Ehrman, where he explains in better detail what he believes. If you don't want to sound foolish, you could borrow the book from the library, and find out what he is saying.

As for what you call him, you are certainly at liberty to call him whatever you want, (you're free to make your choices, as you ever remind us); but I don't think God will take too kindly to your disrespecting, haughty, self-righteous attitude. I was under the impression that Spirit filled people are supposed to be gentle and long-suffering and patient. I have not seen much, or for that matter, any of those fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) in your posts here. You may want to take some time in self examination. (The season of Lent is a wonderful time for that)
 

BetteTheRed

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You can call him whatever you want to there BetteTheRed -----To me he is MR Bart Ehrman ---

You said ------He doesn't describe death as terrifying;

I say
OH ---really ---better read his Facebook page ----he certainly does describe death as terrifying ------

You Said -----Well, the way you tell it, it certainly sounds like a fair charge, anyway.

I say
No the way he tells it it is God's fault and if you agree with him ---your guilty of playing the blame game like he is -----all people need to start taking responsibility for their choice and stop blaming God ---

You said ------God provides a saviour to the world, who is executed by the state, but through the blood of his execution, saves a chosen few to live in Heaven with him forever.

I say
No that is false ----He leaves the choice up to His Human Creation to make there own decision to take or reject His Free Gift to be saved -----

You Said -----God made the world, including a talking snake, who tempted humanity to original sin

I say
Here you are showing your Spiritual ignorance as to how Lucifer became Satan ---Angels have free will to choose to obey or disobey God ----Lucifer decided he wanted to be God and Pride and greed took him over ---can't blame God for what Lucifer decided to do on his own accord -----verse 13 --Pride of the heart here -----

And note -----this tells you where the 3rd heaven is located -------
farthest sides of the north;

And this also tells you where hell is located and who it was originally made for ------Lucifer
To the [e]lowest depths of the Pit.

Isaiah 14 NKJV

The Fall of Lucifer​

12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
O [d]Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!

13 For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;

I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’

15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the [e]lowest depths of the Pit.

Oh, dear. Sweetie, I'm OK, you're OK, etc. Trust me, really. We're not leaving you behind. All will be well, and all manner of things will be well.
 

unsafe

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Redbaron ---you said -----We are not relying soley on the Facebook page as you do. We are actually reading the book Dr. Ehrman, where he explains in better detail what he believes.

I say -----
What he believes and is peddling is False Doctrine -----and I am simply pointing out His False claims about the Truth of God's Word ---

Right from the OP here ---it is said that truth is not welcome on the study thread -------so all the that Mr Bart is peddling about what God says in His Word about heaven and hell and dying and the afterlife has no challenge to it over there ---


Mr Bart is using Scripture and he is teaching his beliefs that Go Against God's word ----He is not just using an historical/literary critical approach to the Bible and the Christian tradition as a whole. He is taking Scripture which says it is truth and mocking it by saying it does not say what it says it does ----He is in fact preaching a Different Gospel to others ------ anyone with a different mind set that holds the truth of the Scripture is Squashed ---not allowed to post the truth of what God does say --Why ---cause it doesn't fit in with the false agenda that is being offered ---lucky this thread is in RF and so the lies of scripture that Mr Bart is peddling can be challenged here --by the truth of scripture being presented

- heaven and hell are mentioned in all scripture ------and Jesus did teach on heaven and hell which Mr Bart argues against ------

Heaven and Hell evolved by human culture -----he says -----LOL :ROFLMAO: --------No human culture created the concept of heaven and hell we humans aren't that smart ----that is a ridiculous assumption -----Satan :devil: has duped many with that assumption ------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a heading from a new paper article----quoting Mr Bart ----trying to be God here ????----he knows better than God who created heaven and hell ------and saying what you learned is wrong ---who is he to know that ?---Lucifer who had a name change -- Satan --trying to over throw God ------Pride of the heart ---


Bible scholar Bart Ehrman on why everything you’ve been told about heaven and hell is wrong


A major point of your book is just how much the notion of heaven and hell evolved over time.

The thesis of the book is that neither idea of heaven or hell is taught anywhere in the Old Testament, and it’s not what Jesus taught.

I say -----
That is what your discussing ----which contradicts what God says -------

Everyone has a right to know both sides and that should never be squashed on any thread in my opinion ----it just shows the fear and anger that people have to have the truth posted and the same for the person who is posting what is not excepted ------Society today wants their cake and eat it to ---they want to be in God's kingdom but don't want to do what God says to do to be in His Kingdom ---they want to believe they can do whatever they want to and God is Suppose to accept them no matter what they do or think or who they listen to ------how arrogant is that -------
 

BetteTheRed

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No, unsafe, you have it completely all wrong. You can yack here to your little heart's content, we've established that.

But there's a general rule around book studies - the study of a book. It's very hard to have an informed discussion about the book if you won't read it. No-one is forcing you to read the book. We're 'forcing' you to read it IF you want to participate in the "Book Study" thread - the study of A BOOK?

Is that clearer?
 

unsafe

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I don't want to participate in your book study thread because I would be doing the same thing I am doing here ---challenging what he is putting forth from Scripture and be Banned -----I am doing just fine in this thread ----You can almost read every section of what Mr Bart's book is about just by googling it ---you don't need to read his full book -----to see what he is speaking about and what he believes about it ------

But no one should be squashed from participating in any thread as was done in the OP of this thread for the study book thread ----when it was posted that truth is not welcome ------

This is the quote from OP BetteTheRed ------

Regardless of the approach taken, this will be about questioning and discussing ideas, not preaching "The Truth."

I say
Regardless of whether one reads the book for this book study as you call it ----the truth is not to be Preached -----so that says truth is not welcome in any form ------you either discuss and agree that heaven and hell were put in place by human culture or your not welcome -----no other conversations accepted -----very sad

No thanks ---

This is what I am in agreement with ------Hold Fast Folks !!!!!!------


In fact, to understand Heaven and Hell and Ehrman’s other writings, he has become an eloquent apostle of deconversion, and his disciples are many.


While critics of the faith come and go, I regard Ehrman as one of the most significant modern opponents to the Christian faith. He’s a secular prophet to certain evangelical and ex-evangelical readers.

Call to Hold Fast​

I feel sorry for Bart Ehrman, but I’m even more saddened at the harm done to those who embrace his teachings. We who believe the Bible must recognize this is about our adversary, Satan, who comes to destroy and devours people through persuasive arguments, and who when he lies, “speaks his native language” (John 8:44, NIV).

In a time when “everyone has a story,” people listen to stories without discernment. The personal testimony historically has been used by faith-affirmers to reach the lost. Now it has become a tool of faith-deniers to reach the found.

There are still wonderful conversion stories, and we should tell them. But we should also teach our children to cultivate their intellects and equip them to refute falsehood.

And we should demonstrate the transcendent vibrancy of a generous, Christ-centered, and people-loving life, enlightened by the authentic God-man Jesus, full of grace and truth.

Finally, , we “must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that [we] can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it” (Titus 1:9).



So worth Repeating ----these -----

but I’m even more saddened at the harm done to those who embrace his teachings.

We who believe the Bible must recognize this is about our adversary, Satan who comes to destroy and devours people through persuasive arguments,

we “must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that [we] can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it



I say ---for me the first sentence is the sadist ------many --many and many people will perish in the 2nd death if they embrace Mr Bart's False Doctrine -------and he doesn't care ---that is the very sad thing --

And this says -------encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it”

Titus 1:---- 9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Refute means ----- : to prove wrong by argument or evidence : show to be false or erroneous.

Which is what I am doing ----so just maybe 1 here might want to known the truth there BetteTheRed -----Jesus said ---I am the Way --The Truth And the Life -----Jesus is Truth and only the truth can set you free ------
 

unsafe

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No ---no deal ----no one should be banned for challenging false Doctrine in any thread when it is presented ------that should be the Deal ----

--And just maybe----- you should stop whining about truth being brought forth in this thread where it is allowed to challenge Mr Bart's false Doctrine --------Deal ?

Just saying ---what is good for the goose is also good for the gander :giggle:
 

BetteTheRed

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I'm not complaining, because I can post on either thread, because I can be bothered to read the book.
 

Redbaron

The Legend Continues
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Dr. Ehrman is not preaching false doctrine. It may be you are simply out of your depth, ms unsafe. But 'tis OK. You feel free to whine here. We'll leave a virtual box of tissues here for you.
 

Ritafee

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no one should be banned for challenging false Doctrine in any thread when it is presented
Bart is exercising his free will to challenge what he interprets as your false doctrine by way of his own historical research around the human creation of the heaven and hell narratives. If you are in disagreement with his conclusions you have the free will to challenge what you interpret as his false doctrine. In the meantime faith without works is still dead as a doornail. When one’s faith is worked out mainly in sharing text messages, emails, and images via screens, encouragement and inspiration may take place, but the chance for true discipleship to occur is quite dim.
 

Luce NDs

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When challenged ... can a person learn something from a challenging book? Sometimes ... other times we are anchored and are not motivated to learn ... expansive souls are threatening!
 
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