And now...junk food is cheaper than healthy food.
How do we know what is true?
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blackbelt1961
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why would you make a absolute truth clam when you don't believe in truth????????? truth dose not contradict itself
but I am absolutely certain that one day, you will die , that if you place your naked hand in a fire you will burn it, so on and so on
if you believe that truth is invented in the mind how can you even believe that what you wrote above is not actually false?
Lastpointe
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Another contributor , at least to me, is dropping home ec type classes in elementary schools.
If your parents didn't cook, and no one shows you how, it is pretty daunting to buy chicken and figure it out.
The inner city school I help at has cooking classes during the lunch period. Kids sign up for a month or so, great way to show how to cook.
Of course by having it at lunch it unfortunately interferes with running around on the playground.
But there is no room in the regular day and I think the teachers are great for trying to teach cooking
If your parents didn't cook, and no one shows you how, it is pretty daunting to buy chicken and figure it out.
The inner city school I help at has cooking classes during the lunch period. Kids sign up for a month or so, great way to show how to cook.
Of course by having it at lunch it unfortunately interferes with running around on the playground.
But there is no room in the regular day and I think the teachers are great for trying to teach cooking
ChemGal
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I was thinking more in terms of false positives and false negatives. I haven't had a chance to read this article, but from what I understood from the abstract, it sounds all subjective.
ETA: I can't access it, have you read the article?
Lastpoint- a bit of insight...It's funny...my dad's a doctor...and I was raised a 'consumer'...and because of those two things I am more apt to reject aspects of conventional medicine and consumerism - especially the two together, and I know that one impacts the other. My dad was/ is a good doc. He's not a perfect human above critique (who is), he's not God (some docs seem to think they are) but he's a good doc and a nice person. Neither is the field. I get into these same arguments with him though. I have been for about 20 years. He doesn't want to see it. He's more on the "right", he moved to the right as he got older (he was almost a hippy back in the day). I didn't. Ever the idealist, seeing social trends that are harmful - trying to resist buying into them..and I don't think western medicine can be excluded - it too is highly influenced by marketing and consumerism. And I also reject the amount of control western medicine/ big pharma has and so want to march to my own drum. That's me.
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It seemed subjective to me too. Their method was to observe each others' cases?
Again, though, the idea that science as we know it is the only way to measure what is 'true' with our limited brain capacity...maybe is not true and science is missing something. Or, it's just BS...but it can't, IMO, be treated as crap if people actually find benefit from it. Anecdotal or not. I don't care. It's still valid. They like it, that's what matters. They are adults, it is their life and choice what to do with their own healthcare when they know the options. I agree that the government is not obligated to pay for every choice.
Delightful Life
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Again, science isn't a 'thing' -- it is the collective, careful and hard-won knowledge of humanity
@Inanna...But it doesn't know everything - and it can't (that's what scientists won't admit) and yet has the last word in our world. I know, at least, that I don't know and I know that we lack the capacity to know everything. As Ichthys said, maybe there are aliens (maybe there are) 1000x smarter than us with the ability to see things in more dimensions than we do... I like themental image of the pet and the vacuum cleaner. So our knowledge is very incomplete...as advanced as it has become, because we are ONLY humans, we only use 10% of the brains we have. Wouldn't it be funny if scientists as part of basic training, under supervision, were required to drop acid (it'll never happen) and see just how 'perception' of what is real is only as real as you think it is...which is a subjective human experience not an objective universal one?
chansen
Had a point all along
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I think what is clear is that Kimmio does not understand what science is. She does indeed discuss it like it's an entity, when it's really a process, and the accumulated knowledge gained through that process. It is the best way we have of increasing our body of knowledge. If I ask where the bible informed science of anything, does anyone have an answer?
As for the value of personal experience over science, it can be part of science. Tylenol, for example. We don't know exactly how Tylenol (acetaminophen) works. We just know it does. In study after study. It's not a placebo.
Science is the systematic generation of hypotheses, testing of those hypotheses, and observing the results to gather knowledge. Thankfully, science doesn't ask, "Is this solution popular?" Science doesn't care about popular. It also doesn't care if people are nice. As a process, it seeks the truth, whether the truth is popular and pleasant, or not.
Science goes off the rails when it seeks to come to a predetermined conclusion. When drug companies want their new drugs to achieve FDA approval, they are subject to stringent oversight, because they've been lying bastards in the past.
That's a reason to hate on drug companies - not science. Science done badly is not science. I think coming to a conclusion and then ignoring all evidence to the contrary is more like religion. You can argue with me on that point, but it's not science.
As for the value of personal experience over science, it can be part of science. Tylenol, for example. We don't know exactly how Tylenol (acetaminophen) works. We just know it does. In study after study. It's not a placebo.
Science is the systematic generation of hypotheses, testing of those hypotheses, and observing the results to gather knowledge. Thankfully, science doesn't ask, "Is this solution popular?" Science doesn't care about popular. It also doesn't care if people are nice. As a process, it seeks the truth, whether the truth is popular and pleasant, or not.
Science goes off the rails when it seeks to come to a predetermined conclusion. When drug companies want their new drugs to achieve FDA approval, they are subject to stringent oversight, because they've been lying bastards in the past.
That's a reason to hate on drug companies - not science. Science done badly is not science. I think coming to a conclusion and then ignoring all evidence to the contrary is more like religion. You can argue with me on that point, but it's not science.
blackbelt1961
Well-Known Member
Again, science isn't a 'thing' -- it is the collective, careful and hard-won knowledge of humanity
yet science cannot account for everything
1) Experiential Truth: Science cannot prove that your spouse loves you
2) Historical Truth: Science cannot prove that Barack Obama won the 2008 United States presidential election
3) Logical Truth: Science cannot prove a truth statement to be true
4) Moral Truth: Science cannot prove that rape is evil or that Saints are good
5) Existential Truth: Science cannot prove that you aren’t merely a brain in a jar and the the external world is real
and last but not least but my Fave :
science cannot prove that science is true
Delightful Life
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Moving to another thread, "The Joy of Finding Things Out"
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Delightful Life
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By definition, that's what knowledge is -- what we don't know isn't knowledge, right? :3
RitaTG
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Interesting post chansen .... you posted:
"it's really a process, and the accumulated knowledge gained through that process........"
"Science done badly is not science. I think coming to a conclusion and then ignoring all evidence to the contrary is more like religion. You can argue with me on that point, but it's not science."
Just wondering here ...... would we not be better to treat spirituality as a process? Mendalla, Innawhimsey and Hermann, to name a few, can jump in here .....
If I may paraphrase for the sake of discussion.
Religion done badly is not spirituality. I think that coming to a conclusion based on interpretations of a particular book and ignoring all research to the contrary is religion. You can argue with me on that point but it's not spirituality.
Thoughts please??
Regards
Rita
"it's really a process, and the accumulated knowledge gained through that process........"
"Science done badly is not science. I think coming to a conclusion and then ignoring all evidence to the contrary is more like religion. You can argue with me on that point, but it's not science."
Just wondering here ...... would we not be better to treat spirituality as a process? Mendalla, Innawhimsey and Hermann, to name a few, can jump in here .....
If I may paraphrase for the sake of discussion.
Religion done badly is not spirituality. I think that coming to a conclusion based on interpretations of a particular book and ignoring all research to the contrary is religion. You can argue with me on that point but it's not spirituality.
Thoughts please??
Regards
Rita
I like that last one...
Scientific methodology has become the 'holy grail' . Has anyone considered there might be other methods of finding out truths? But of course, that concept itself will be rejected if scientific methodology is considered the one and only.
And @chansen...what about the idea that our human brains can only, so far, think and percieve on human terms with human capacity?
And the Tylenol thing is very interesting. I didn't know that. What makes it better than the anecdotal evidence of those who've benefitted from homeopathy. I am sure you've used Tylenol and would say you benefitted. Why should I believe you?
Scientific methodology has become the 'holy grail' . Has anyone considered there might be other methods of finding out truths? But of course, that concept itself will be rejected if scientific methodology is considered the one and only.
And @chansen...what about the idea that our human brains can only, so far, think and percieve on human terms with human capacity?
And the Tylenol thing is very interesting. I didn't know that. What makes it better than the anecdotal evidence of those who've benefitted from homeopathy. I am sure you've used Tylenol and would say you benefitted. Why should I believe you?
chansen
Had a point all along
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Citation. Give me one.
Because no one gives a crap what your best friend or neighbour says about climate change or diabetes treatment.
No. You think you know about science. You do not. Not at all. You've demonstrated no knowledge of the subject - only a fear of the motivations of some, that you've extrapolated to an irrational fear of science in general.
No, we don't. That's a myth, which you seem to prefer over the truth at every opportunity.
We know what happens when we alter brain chemistry. Besides, any altered states of reality are not consistent between people, and not even necessarily between one moment and the next. When we're not on acid, what you and I experience can be communicated and compared. A third party can validate that experience. None of the other parties will see the pink elephant I see on acid, while my brain is screwed up.
But science is not the only way of finding out what we still don't know - that's just the arrogance of our human left side of the brain.
ChemGal
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If people want to take sugar pills, fine. What I take issue with are the principles behind homeopathic medicine and then how it is presented to patients. False claims are made. I've gone to the pharmacy with real problems and have had pharmacists recommend homeopathic remedies - that's an issue, especially when they aren't presented as such. When people go to a homeopath, how many think that the homeopathic remedies are like supplements, with natural, active ingredients? Often, it's not informed consent.
Delightful Life
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Again, science isn't a thing as you are implying, here, but rather it is the collective, careful and hard-won knowledge of humanity
See ya on the other thread
ChemGal
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I think scientists are very willing to admit that.
And the guy who came up with the double helix structure on acid?
I care and you should too, about how the people you meet 'experience' the world around them. Science is so bloody arrogant in that regard.
So if science can't know everything (I can't find a citation that was opinion) if you can admit that because our brains can only perceive with the human senses we have but have no way of perceiving beyond our dimensions - then how can you even say that if it's not always scientifically proven, it's crap? Science can mitigate people making harmful decisions, sure, but it is not the holy grail, or the path to the holy grail, of everything we'll ever know.