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And my point is...without Erin Brockovitch (sp?) having people in her corner helping her chase down her hunch - having some faith that her empathy and intuition was worth something - and she was going on a hunch from 'anecdotal' evidence to begin with - she would have not gotten anywhere. Whereas, you seem to be saying (my perception/ understanding of your criteria - I am not lying nor quoting you directly) that the evidence has to be there before a hunch can even be discussed and before anyone will possibly take it seriously - which defeats the point - if the only the experts own the right to make a point. Stonewalled. And that is just depressing to me. I think I'll take a chill pill. Maybe get myself high on some sugar pills.
 
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Kimmio, I don't get that feeling from Chansen at all. He seems to have a good idea how science works. Scientific discovery is discovering things we don't yet know - gathering evidence that wasn't available to us before.

Hunches are discussed all the time by scientists.
 
I disparaged scientists who did bad science earlier in the thread. I see no reason why secretaries can't do good science. I don't know if Erin Brockovich did good science or summarized scientific findings well. I don't base many arguments on movie plotlines, so I'm out of my element here. I will say again that science is not a person or a corporation. It's a structured methodology. I keep saying that. You don't care.

Again, you just decide what I'm saying for me, against everything I've written.
 
I guess I resent big business having it's tentacles every aspect of our lives and I would like choices based on more than one field of experts - and I consider naturopaths experts in their own right - about my health. And the medical system is set up for cost cutting, efficiency, and caters to big pharma - and I just don't understand how they have the right to tell me something doesn't work when it helps me. They can quote their studies but they are not an expert on how I feel in my body. (personal disclosure: I took a herbal pill that helped me with something, it did, and my dad tried to tell me it didn't work. I almost told him to go suck eggs because it did work...in fact I might have but we're good now...so I have personal issues here too...but he feels threatened by patients like me because there was a time, before the Internet, before so much health conscious consumerism, that he would. not be questioned...and he hates it. He's good. He keeps up on stuff...but naturopathy is his enemy.)
 
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@Kimmio I have not had someone in the medical field tell me that something doesn't make me feel better when it does. Have you had a doctor do that? They tend to just say it doesn't work for x - not that it can't make you feel better.

As for cost cutting, medicine can be expensive. Naturopaths have lower costs, and the government isn't usually covering some of them. I don't know where you would get something that is in the 1000s of dollars/dose for free without paying out of pocket in the naturopathic field.
 
I took something, I said, it's making me feel better...and he said "it doesn't work! " that was a father daughter...ehem...debate. My own doctor, actually, the good one, the ethicist, supported me to try it if it helps, and knowing how sensitive my nervous system to side effects is felt that was a good idea...
 
Yeah, true. I just grew up around his 'expertise' and sometimes it pisses me off. He argues about everything even more than me, that's who I got it from. Lol. He loves a debate. He can debate anything.

Medicine saved my life as a baby, and helped my quality of life as a kid and youth...but as an adult I really feel impaired by side effects that would barely impact a 'normal' person. So many meds cause muscle tightness - even cold meds, and that makes me feel unsure of my footing, and that causes anxiety, etc. any side effect, even stomach upset, can affect my mobility ...because it throws me off focus. And of course muscle relaxants to combat the tightness come with another set of problems that get in the way of daily living. Something people have a very hard time understanding without the experience of it - and so I would prefer to find something with as few as possible and lots of herbal products I have found have fewer side effects.
 
RitaTG said:
Interesting post chansen .... you posted:
"it's really a process, and the accumulated knowledge gained through that process........"
"Science done badly is not science. I think coming to a conclusion and then ignoring all evidence to the contrary is more like religion. You can argue with me on that point, but it's not science."
Just wondering here ...... would we not be better to treat spirituality as a process? Mendalla, Innawhimsey and Hermann, to name a few, can jump in here .....
If I may paraphrase for the sake of discussion.
Religion done badly is not spirituality. I think that coming to a conclusion based on interpretations of a particular book and ignoring all research to the contrary is religion. You can argue with me on that point but it's not spirituality.
Thoughts please??
Regards
Rita
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I was thinking the same thing.
 
chansen said:
I have repeatedly stated, on the old site, that "science is the best method we have" for increasing our body of knowledge. Repeatedly.
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Of course, science is the best method we have for increasing our body of knowledge, and psychological science acknowledges the efficacy of faith healing or the placebo effect. How it works is not quite known, but that it works is proven. It seems that the faith in a certain method or cure, the firm belief that we get well, works on our psyche, so much so that a psychic or psychosomatic healing or remission is achieved. It could be that the firm belief in a cure triggers the innate self-healing powers of the body, which may lie dormant when we believe ourselves to be ill. Often, faith healing is achieved by a certain ritual, and the belief of some mumbo-jumbo seems essential, but it is not the ritual or the belief in the mumbo-jumbo that heals us, but the firm belief that we get well, or that we are well.

Faith healing works best with psychological and psychosomatic illnesses, but almost every illness is somewhat influenced by the psyche, and will get better with faith healing.

"Your faith has healed you!"

-Jesus
 
Kimmio
I am glad that you have found things that help your health.

I am sure you are aware that there are very few regulations surrounding "herbal" products related to strength, and contamination.

The industry, and don't kid yourself, mom and pop style packaging is just that, most are actually produced by large companies; has effectively lobbied against regulation. Drug companies can't get away with the lack standards but they can.

The end result?

You have no idea what is actually in those bottles and if it is the same strength as the last batch you bought.

Doesn't mean they don't help. Modern medicine is often refined and regulated capsules of the same sorry of thing. But held to a higher standard of proof.
 
Lastpointe said:
Kimmio
I am glad that you have found things that help your health.

I am sure you are aware that there are very few regulations surrounding "herbal" products related to strength, and contamination.

The industry, and don't kid yourself, mom and pop style packaging is just that, most are actually produced by large companies; has effectively lobbied against regulation. Drug companies can't get away with the lack standards but they can.

The end result?

You have no idea what is actually in those bottles and if it is the same strength as the last batch you bought.

Doesn't mean they don't help. Modern medicine is often refined and regulated capsules of the same sorry of thing. But held to a higher standard of proof.
Click to expand...
Lastpointe said:
Kimmio
I am glad that you have found things that help your health.

I am sure you are aware that there are very few regulations surrounding "herbal" products related to strength, and contamination.

The industry, and don't kid yourself, mom and pop style packaging is just that, most are actually produced by large companies; has effectively lobbied against regulation. Drug companies can't get away with the lack standards but they can.

The end result?

You have no idea what is actually in those bottles and if it is the same strength as the last batch you bought.

Doesn't mean they don't help. Modern medicine is often refined and regulated capsules of the same sorry of thing. But held to a higher standard of proof.
Click to expand...

Well...many companies/ industries of different sorts have been charged with the task of self-regulating...in their own favour. Our current gov't likes it that way. If health products companies are inconsistent (are they? Or is that a big pharma strategy to discredit them? I am going to look into that further...although I am sure it will be hard to find information to criticize pharma in health journals since they'd likely have their damage control people all over that - making sure that it's hard to prove. Holistic magazine articles on that are likely easy to find but that won't be taken seriously here. Not sure where else to look. I am not under any illusion that they wouldn't have whole legal departments dedicated to PR damage control) - if herbal health products companies ingredients are inconsistent (I am sure there are companies more reliable than others at quality control because they care about their reputation) ...if that is the case then whose fault is it that they're not regulated well?
 
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Kimmio said:
.if that is the case then whose fault is it that they're not regulated well?
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The publics. It was quite a while ago, but I remember a petition going around against a bill. It was to regulate natural products. People were freaking out about how the government was trying to make it illegal to sell bottled water and other really exaggerated claims. Due to the outcry, it just died.

I've never looked things over carefully, but there have been studies that show even vitamins have little consistency. Herbs would likely be worse, as there are numerous factors that can effect the production of various compounds within them.

There are also situations such as this:
http://www.yourlawyer.com/topics/overview/zicam
 
A list of the top 10 lobby groups in Washington - natural health products are not on there but Big Pharma and Argibusiness are) and that has influence on us here - we are so closely connected in business with the US - because big pharma and big food products companies are multinational and so is their marketing and advertising, impacting what we buy - IMO. All of these lobbies impact the culture around us and what we think of as acceptable.

http://www.businesspundit.com/10-of-the-biggest-lobbies-in-washington/
 
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