Grace and the Law

[Pinga]

Aitclean33, that is your interpretation based on your understanding of how Christian faith

 

[airclean33]

Hi Pinga-- It is a very simple understanding in what I believe.If I am talking to some one not of our faith . They may have a different way of seeing thing"s. My post was to try and level the ground of understanding.

 

[Neo]

--Hi Jihad Mohammad. I am not sure you understand Christian belief. We believe The Lord Jesus died for our sins , if we except that. We are clean ,so the power of GOD has a clean place" to come into. The water dose not fall into polluted containers. We have a wonderful GOD who has sett forth the plan . Before humankind were.

Your view that 'all we have to do to become "clean" is to accept the belief that Jesus died for our sins' is naive at best. It makes it look like Jesus is looking for adoration and nothing else. There is plenty of Biblical scripture that says this not the way it is. Yes, one has to "believe" to take the first step, but there so many steps after that than mere belief. Seek and you will find, listen and you will hear.

 

[revjohn]

I am not sure you understand Christian belief. . . . The water dose not fall into polluted containers. We have a wonderful GOD who has sett forth the plan . Before humankind were.

Ummmm.

But God shows his love for us in this that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

This demonstrates that water (the grace of God) does fall into polluted containers (fallen humanity). That is indeed a Christian belief.

I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

This demonstrates that washing ones robes in the blood of the lamb doesn't happen prior to the grace of God being extended to the believer it is the direct result of the grace of God washing over the believer.

If it were at all possible for humanity to cleanse itself humanity would not experience the grace of God, everything we received from God would be the fitting wage we had earned for our efforts.

Since it is a Christian belief that humanity is fallen and needs Christ to redeem us we are polluted containers and only become clean through the work of Christ and not our own effort.

 

[revjohn]

Your view that 'all we have to do to become "clean" is to accept the belief that Jesus died for our sins' is naive at best.

I would argue that it is a misunderstanding and not necessarily naive.

It makes it look like Jesus is looking for adoration and nothing else.

Respectfully, it doesn't.

If human agency is required for God to act it makes Jesus our puppet and it means that what Jesus does for us is subordinate to the permission we give. It removes grace (as properly understood) and posits a reward in place of grace making human agency the work which leads to righteousness.

In that framework Jesus is not so much looking for adoration as he is waiting for permission.

Belief is not the first step leading to grace. It may very well be the first step in response to grace.

As the first step of response it acknowledges what Jesus sacrifices and that the cost of our salvation is way beyond our human strength to accomplish let alone order.

As always I am perplexed when a conversation begun about grace devolves into discussion of how to earn it.

 

[airclean33]

Sorry John but this is a Lie.
Romans 5: 8 said:
But God shows his love for us in this that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
This demonstrates that water (the grace of God) does fall into polluted containers (fallen humanity). That is indeed a Christian belief.

Airclean Post--John 3:16---
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.


Jhn 1:12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God;

Rom 5:8 But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
It is sure that Christ died for are sins .Even well we were still sinners.Yet by John 3:16 you can see we must except Him The Christ before you are saved.To preach The Cross is not needed Is Wrong. What you posted John is not the way Paul wrote it . I know by reading the books of Paul that is not what he believe.Please note GOD Loved the world even well it was in sin.This don't mean everyone will be saved.

 

[BetteTheRed]

How, AC33 in your tortured mind does, "I believe this can be interpreted differently" translate to "this is a Lie"?

It's not polite, it's not ethical, and it's not SMART.

We get that you have some sort of deeply vested interest in everything you read in the Bible being literally true, but this need in no way qualifies you to discuss the finer points of Scripture (many of which superficially disagree) in any sort of rational fashion.

 

[airclean33]

Hi BetteThe Red--So you believe a Minister in a church that is Christian.Should preach salvation without the cross?We I believe are saved by the death of Christ Jesus and His being raised in 3 days . The same time Jonah, spent in a great fish.You may believe as you want . I am not Judged by what you believe nor you by my beliefs.Bette if you believe I am wrong on what I posted before . Then show me were.

 

[blackbelt1961]

Hi BetteThe Red--So you believe a Minister in a church that is Christian.Should preach salvation without the cross?

But RevJohn has never done this,

 

[airclean33]

But RevJohn has never done this,

Hi Blackbelt -- OK Brother what did I miss.Here is Johns post.

Romans 5: 8 said:
But God shows his love for us in this that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
This demonstrates that water (the grace of God) does fall into polluted containers (fallen humanity). That is indeed a Christian belief.

Airclean -- Dose this not say , you can receive the Holy Spirit without being saved? I believe to be save you first must except Jesus as The Christ.So by His blood we are cleaned. an can receive, GODS Holy Spirit.

 

[revjohn]

Sorry John but this is a Lie.

No. It isn't a lie. You may not like the interpretation I offer. That does not make it a lie and believe it or not I am speaking the truth when I say that it is a Christian belief. Again, you may not like it and you may be ignorant about the wide range of Christian beliefs but I am not lying.

Airclean Post--John 3:16---
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

You realize that is you bolding and underlining and not the text right? Why would you think the latter part about our believing is more important that God loving and giving? Which came first? That really is the question. Did God love you first and give the Son or, did you believe so that he could do both?

It is sure that Christ died for are sins .Even well we were still sinners.

Right so the grace of God comes to the polluted container. Exactly what I posted and you claimed to be a lie.

Yet by John 3:16 you can see we must except Him The Christ before you are saved.

Well actually no. I don't see that. I understand how you arrive at that conclusion. I simply don't agree with it. Which, you will note is not me calling you a liar. It is me saying I think you miss the point, and not by a little.

To preach The Cross is not needed Is Wrong.

I agree it would be. I haven't. In fact if you take time to calm down and read what I have said you will see that I make God the only player in the drama of Salvation. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit alone are mighty to save. So yes, the Grace of God is poured out and Christ redeems by way of the cross and the resurrection and the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin (well after God and Christ have done their thing) and in turn convinces us of our pardon.

Only through that can humanity come to believe.

What you posted John is not the way Paul wrote it .

Here we will disagree. I do believe that I have posted a fair interpretation of Paul. Certainly I have posted a more accurate assessment of Paul's view of humanity than you have with your claims that we are not polluted. Have you suddenly become perfect after insisting so many times that you aren't? You, a new creation in Christ Jesus may not face condemnation for your sins. That is an entirely different matter than still being sinful. The amount of false witness you bear around here is more than enough to point to the reality that you, as a container are plenty polluted still.

I know by reading the books of Paul that is not what he believe.

Respectfully, you don't know. You believe. And rather than taking time to demonstrate how I misread you immediately jump to the conclusion that I am lying. You immediately jump to the conclusion that I reject the cross (which I don't).

Please note GOD Loved the world even well it was in sin.

Why would I have to note it? I'm the one who insists that is the part of John 3: 16 which is most important.

This don't mean everyone will be saved.

Which you won't ever hear me say either. I think I have discussed the doctrine of election enough by now that I won't be mistaken for a universalist.

Seriously do you read my posts? Ever? Do you comprehend or simply imagine? All these years together at WonderCafe.ca and now Wondercafe2 and you are convinced I don't preach the cross and I do believe in universal salvation?

 

[revjohn]

Airclean -- Dose this not say , you can receive the Holy Spirit without being saved?

For the love of Pete. I posted in English in plain words why do you insist I am saying something that I have not said?

I believe to be save you first must except Jesus

This too, is driving me nuts. The word you want is accept. When you accept something you receive it. The word you are constantly using, except means to exclude. When you except something you are rejecting something.

 

[revjohn]

I believe to be save you first must except Jesus as The Christ.So by His blood we are cleaned. an can receive, GODS Holy Spirit.

See this is the difference. You are putting forward the idea that you must accept Jesus in order to receive the Holy Spirit and it is only then that you are saved. You are putting an act of your will in the place priority for salvation.

I believe different. I believe that God, through Christ, chose me before the foundation of the universe (well before I had a will to act) and alongside of that Christ Jesus died in my place and was raised by God to new life so that I being found in him would be raised with him. As a result of that and the Holy Spirit convicting me of my sin I have come before God and accepted that I am a sinner and I can only be saved by the grace of God. My faith then is a result of everything that God, through Christ Jesus and alongside of the Holy Spirit, has done for me.

I am not ashamed to admit that I was unworthy of salvation.

I am not ashamed to admit that were it not for grace I would be estranged from God and life.

I confess that I was dead in my sins before I was born and raised to life only through the resurrection of Jesus my Lord and my Saviour.

I respond to grace only. I do not force God's hand through any action or belief of my own.

 

[blackbelt1961]

Hi Blackbelt -- OK Brother what did I miss.Here is Johns post.

Airclean -- Dose this not say , you can receive the Holy Spirit without being saved? I believe to be save you first must except Jesus as The Christ.So by His blood we are cleaned. an can receive, GODS Holy Spirit.

read Johns response carefully and slooowly

 

[airclean33]

John post---
airclean33 said:
Airclean Post--John 3:16---
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
You realize that is you bolding and underlining and not the text right? Why would you think the latter part about our believing is more important that God loving and giving? Which came first? That really is the question. Did God love you first and give the Son or, did you believe so that he could do both?


This is a good question John. But knowing some of your beliefs. Would you answer . What comes first to you, Being saved or The Holy Spirit.

 

[blackbelt1961]

For the love of Pete. I posted in English in plain words why do you insist I am saying something that I have not said?

whos Pete?

 

[revjohn]

This is a good question John. But knowing some of your beliefs.

What's this? Now I'm considered an authority on what I believe? Instead of telling me what I believe you are asking me what I believe? How long will this last I wonder?

What comes first to you, Being saved or The Holy Spirit.

The two cannot be separated. The Holy Spirit comes, convicts me of my sin and illuminates that I cannot fix that particular problem. Sort of like being trapped in a burning building or drowning at sea. What I want is to be saved. What I lack is the means to save. So my Redeemer must act and not await for my permission. The longer I am in a burning building the more likely it is that I will be overcome by smoke and unable to cry for help or even suggest that it would be nice if someone helped me. A drowning person, if you have ever witnessed it, cannot cry out for help, they have no air in their lungs to make sound with. If Jesus waited for someone to say "save me" then we'd all be dead and he'd be the worst lifeguard ever.

The Holy Spirit comes because the Holy Spirit is sent by the grace of God. Not because I have earned it but rather because I have need of it. Everything I do is in response to the action of God either as the Father, the Son of the Holy Spirit.

 

[revjohn]

whos Pete?

My bootlegger. If ever I needed a drink surely it is now.

 

[chansen]

John, your patience is legendary.

Airclean, this is going even worse than usual for you. You've really got to work on reading things more carefully.

 

[airclean33]

See this is the difference. You are putting forward the idea that you must accept Jesus in order to receive the Holy Spirit and it is only then that you are saved. You are putting an act of your will in the place priority for salvation.

---Airclean---This is the answer to my question. Here you are saying I am putting forwardthe Idea you must act. Yet as I have showen you GOD himself said in The Book of John you must except His son.----------Airclean Post--John 3:16---
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.


--John post--
I believe different. I believe that God, through Christ, chose me before the foundation of the universe (well before I had a will to act) and alongside of that Christ Jesus died in my place and was raised by God to new life so that I being found in him would be raised with him. As a result of that and the Holy Spirit convicting me of my sin I have come before God and accepted that I am a sinner and I can only be saved by the grace of God. My faith then is a result of everything that God, through Christ Jesus and alongside of the Holy Spirit, has done for me.

--Airclean--Of course you believe different ,that is what we are talking about.I think GOD chose the World. Yes before the foundation of the universe (well before I had a will to act) The other part I am not agreeable with. Then He God sent Christ Jesus to died in the Worlds place . That is for all of those that would believe in Him.


--John Post--
I am not ashamed to admit that I was unworthy of salvation.

--Airclean--I am ashamed I had been a sinner . I am now saved wash in His blood.

--John post--
I am not ashamed to admit that were it not for grace I would be estranged from God and life.

--Airclean--I am Thankful to my Lord Jesus The Christ for His taken away my sinns

--John---
I confess that I was dead in my sins before I was born and raised to life only through the resurrection of Jesus my Lord and my Saviour.

--Airclean--I was dead in sin, till that day The Lord called me by my name. and forgave my sins.

--John--
I respond to grace only. I do not force God's hand through any action or belief of my own


--Airclean-- I walk today with GODS Holy Spirit in me and helping me. I do what He tells me and when He moves me to do it. I am still learning but am not complaining, as we do have the best teacher that ever was or that will ever be. He is The beginning and The end Through Him comes all Life and this Great GOD is are Father.